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What has happened to all the European kennels?

27K views 44 replies 17 participants last post by  Bigben 
#1 ·
Hello everyone,

I have been researching getting a Doberman for a long time. I've done a lot of research but I'm still pretty far from being ready to take a puppy in. This research has included researching breeders, their reputation, their dogs pedigree and their dogs' health clearances. It's also included reading hundreds (no joke, hundreds) of threads here on DT about breeders, raising puppies and threads regarding specific Doberman breeders.

What I"m noticing is that a lot of the European breeders/kennels for which there are DT threads on have seemingly disappeared. Either their websites are down or it seems like it was last updated years ago. Can I ask what has happened to these breeders? And since all the previously recommended European kennels have disappeared, what are some active European kennels that DT approves of?

The websites/kennels that were previously recommended on DT but have now gone offline include Del Nasi, Alto Bello, Bell Lavoro, Zoosfery (last litter update was in 2013), among many others I can't recall off the top of my head but whose websites are dead.

I'm certainly not settled on any of these breeders, nor do these breeders represent the kind of doberman I am interested in. But I am just curious as to what is happening to these sites/breeders, is it a case of them retiring or just a case of them no longer updating their sites. Thank you. I am new and still several months away from being prepared to even contact breeders about upcoming litters but I plan on making use of the great resource DT offers.
 
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#2 ·
First of all, many breeders just let their websites go by the wayside due to the inherent time commitments of being a breeder, including raising puppies, pedigree research, and titling their breeding stock. Also, many worthwhile breeders find that after a certain point, they no longer need a website as most of their puppy buyers find out about them through word of mouth. So they don't see the need to update their sites. I know of a few breeders who merely update their own Facebook as a substitute to updating a website.

As far as the specific breeders you mentioned, I know Alto Bello is no longer highly recommended around here because they send their dogs to some sketchy international shows that leaves the validity of their titles in question, but I don't know much about the others. You could probably still get into contact with them when the time comes if you look hard enough for some contact info
 
#3 ·
Altobello isn't not recommended because of sketchy titles. Lots of European dogs have sketchy titles, especially working titles or ZTPs. It's the fact that Altobello sells dogs to places like Kimbertal that really gives them a bad name.
 
#4 ·
"The websites/kennels that were previously recommended on DT but have now gone offline include Del Nasi, Alto Bello, Bell Lavoro, Zoosfery (last litter update was in 2013), among many others I can't recall off the top of my head but whose websites are dead."

Altobellos lines are filled with cardio so is Del Nazi. See they used to say Euro dogs were healthier. All dogs appear healthier when you AREN'T health testing like in the US. Now their puppy buyers are all talking on online FB groups and learning about the tragic state of their dogs health. Altobello who's #1 dog that they squandered tons of money into conveniently died of food poisoning but oddly enough (not really) most of his progeny has died from DCM. Del Nazi was another #1 dog. Imagine how many euro breeders (well known for line breeding/in breeding) are now having these issues?

im glad I had my suspicions a while back and went with a reputable US breeder who has euro lines that contain longevity.
 
#5 ·
Wow, I had no idea it was that bad and widespread. I didn't mention anything about Betelges because I had already read the threads on them :)

Like I said, I'm still months away from deciding anything and I might even decide ultimately to not get a Doberman at all. But right now, Eastern Europe is a backup plan for me. I really like some UK dogs I'm seeing and I feel more comfortable buying an animal in the first world (no offense to anyone! I know great people in less developed countries).

As for why I might seem less interested in American Euro breeders, I really don't want a working dog and that's what most American euro breeders seem to work towards. I actually just immediately lose interest if I see anything like IPO3.

Other than the great fat heads on Euros, I am interested in their temperament. I'd probably like a pup with a lower drive but I think a Doberman's temperament is more than just their drive. My ideal dog would be exceptionally brave, fearless and confident. From what I have read European dobermans exhibit this more. Again, this is all based on second-hand knowledge and my experience with my uncle's imported Doberman when I was a kid, so I'm open to hearing other opinions. But confidence and fearlessness are very important to me because I think a fearful doberman is a dangerous doberman. I know a lot of this comes down to training. But I ideally want a dog who will be aware of someone walking up behind it on the street but confident enough not to be afraid that someone is behind them. And I think that describes the doberman perfectly.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I'm not sure where you're from but I know Foxfire dogs have REALLY beautiful heads, so does Holly Woods. Holly Woods has a puppy right now but they want it to go to a show home. It is a gorgeous dog! I believe both breeders have some South American lines there. SA have some very beautiful heads!

Have you looked at SA? They look like a cross between Euro and Amer. lines. They're temperament also seems like a cross, which I like.

Also, AM lines might have a temperament you like. I know my girl has a wonderful temperament. So much so a judge is looking at her for their next puppy and will be going with me to nationals to look at some potential studs. She's currently focused on showing but we have been dabbling in IPO, I'm just waiting for her to get finished. I know many AM dobes doing very well in IPO.
 
#9 ·
Since I am in to working lines more then show I am not sure what the market looks like in northern Europe.
However there are several very serious working dobe breeders in the Scandinavian countries that are worth looking in to.
With that said several are very hesitant at selling to NA buyers after having sold dogs in the past that have been cropped / docked after exporting against the breeders wish. Anyone looking at working line dogs should take a look there though.
For exampel, in Sweden you can't even register a puppy unless it's parents have done certain health and mentality tests which is way more than you can say about breeding over here. Also, all titles and most health screenings (HD, heart for example) are public.
 
#10 ·
Im from Austria.... i can tell you no big name breeders are worth your search.... ALL lines have DCM in them there are no DCM free lines and probably will never be again (if they open studbook and we are allowed to outcross in a breeding program then maybe)

If you need a Show line Doberman dont look to Serbia they have no checking on there dogs at all.... most dont even do any tests and a whole lot send blood to the US to Test DCM1 they get back free and they sell puppys saying there line is DCM free what is by all means not true....

We have a DCM list where you see who died from DCM who has aktuall DCM.... i can link you that if you like for your reasearch then you get a bit of more picture what lines have more DCM than others...

at the moment we have 2 reputable breeders in Austria .... they will be having a litter soon i can just absolutly recomend this paairing of Di Matario (i think website is down at the moment because of the Show beeing planed and something went wrong, if i had money and room i would get myself a female....).
I know of 2 in germany but only one is activ and has no litter this year or next year for certain....
I can give you many aktiv breeders over the whole of europe but i havent had a look into them yet since i was concentrating on finding a male for breeding the last 2 years....

so if you need help just give me a shout
 
#13 ·
I am from CA. There are some breeders here with the look I like but they seem to mostly breed working dogs. And from the limited information I've gathered, it seems some of them might want more than I'm willing to spend on a dog. I don't want backyard breeder prices by any means and I understand the cost of living/breeding in CA is high but I have a rough range in mind for when I do choose a breeder.



Thank you so much. I would love to see that list and add it to my resources. For whatever reason, I never considered Austrian kennels, I guess they never popped up in my searches. Can I ask about the 2 you are familiar with? It seems like most German kennels are really big on work and protection. For that reason, I stopped looking into German breeders.

I live in a relatively safe area so I don't really need protection and I don't have much work for it to do. However, pit bulls are very trendy in LA and you see them in all kinds of neighborhoods (not just rough neighborhoods, I have friends with pit bulls) so I would like a dobe confident enough to not feel threatened if a pit bull curiously walks up to it.
 
#15 ·
Yet another thread where "respectable" American breeders are being glorified praising the NA dobermann while (some) European breeders are being ignorantly demonized at the same time the "Euro" dogs critisized because of their different look to the NA dobermann..

There are poor breeders everywhere breeding poor dogs..do not categorize them according to their geographical location..
 
#16 ·
I disagree and I agree with you.

I don't think or didn't read, that anyone criticized the look of the Euro. Perhaps I missed it.

I also don't feel like Europe was being demonized. There are bad breeders here! If he would have asked about Kimbertal or Britton or Family dobes my advice would have been the same. Stick with a breeder you can trust because they aren't known for selling healthy puppies. My opinion is I wouldn't look overseas because it takes a lot of research and knowledge and really having an "in" with the breeders to know who you can trust. Just as in the U.S. the "bigger, flashier well-known kennels and websites" in Europe don't seem to be producing very healthy dogs, for the most part. I think if someone lived in Europe and wanted a dobe from the US it would also require an "in" because those flashy websites sell, but they don't always sell the best of dogs.

But there are great heads here in the US and there are great temperaments and they are with breeders that we know and can recommend.
 
#18 · (Edited)
I don’t know that most of these posts are necessarily demonizing European dogs as much as pointing out how difficult it is to properly vet breeders in Europe and other parts of the world when one lives in the USA. (Notice a couple of the responders are from Europe too.) It is harder to travel to check out the conditions at a kennel when it is in another country, and communications can be difficult too. It is not as easy to keep in touch with a breeder to get the answers to any problems a puppy owner may have when the breeder is in another country. Language may be a barrier; distance is another.

For a beginning dobe owner in particular, who may have lots of questions, and who hasn’t had experience with shipping a dog across borders, a more “local” breeder may be a better choice.

Both “groups” are teeming with problem breeders, but there are unfortunately a number of poor breeders here in the USA who use the Euro label as a marketing technique to try to make their dogs seem rarer and better than other dobes in the country. The mystique given to the term “Euro”, in this country at least, can be very enticing to some folks new to the breed who may get misled by all the propaganda those bad breeders throw at them.

"Caveat Emptor” for ANY doberman buyer is more the sense I’m getting from this thread.
 
#21 ·
Beata di Altobello(Fedor del Nasi - Golda di Altobello)2007-08-01 / 2012, Cause of death 05-year / DCM
Bianca vom Kainachtal 27.08.2005-15.06.2015 (Godwin Asdemi di Matario x Helena del Fiorsilva) DCM Diagnose, cause of death: cancer
Bombastic Cody di Altobello (Maxim di Altobello x Prima di Altobello) 23.06.2009 - 23.06.2014 DCM
Oncemore Evita ( Kant Di Altobello - Santa Julf Vanilla ) 22.11.2006 - 03.05.2015. Died of DCM
Altobello Calvados ( Master Max of Djarmati x Sankt Kreal Hrustalnaya Mechta ) 01.12.2006 - .02.2008 suddden death in the garden
Beata di Altobello (Fedor del Nasi - Golda di Altobello) 2007-08-01 / 2012-00-00
Cause of death 05-year / DCM
Bombastic Cody di Altobello dob 23.06.2009-23.06.2014 (Maxim di Altobello x Prima di Altobello DCM
VITA VOM GEBRANNTEN WALDE 26/09/2004-15/03/2010 (FABIUS RENEWAL - BOMBA DAX DI ALTOBELLO) died DCM after 6 months of treatment.
Aristocrat Raiden Sky (Fedor del Nasi x Hassia Betelges) 10.1.2006 - april 2012 died from DCM
Beata di Altobello(Fedor del Nasi - Golda di Altobello)2007-08-01 / 2012, Cause of death 05-year / DCM
Czaar Ginga House (Fedor del Nasi x Inca Ginga House) 3.10.2007 - october 2013 died from DCM
Horus di casa Fox (Elisir di casaFox x Fedor del nasi) 4.5 years
PACO PRIDE Black Novak 06.04.2009 (Fedor Del Nasi x Lowa Lotus) died 2015 02
Alias Raiden Sky (Fedor del Nasi x Hassia Betelges) 6,5 DCM
Armageddon von Ambassador ( Zemic's Arwen- Fedor Del Nasi) 24.10.2010-01.03.2014
Beata di Altobello (Fedor del Nasi - Golda di Altobello) 2007-08-01 / 2012-00-00
Cause of death 05-year / DCM
Dark Velvet Dobi Royal (Latino Lorenco v Cobra x Esprit del Nasi)- 04.04.2008 - 29.09.2012 dies in her bed.
Manuela Betelges (zedor del nasi x night betelges) 14.05.2011-09.08.2015 died of DCM, one month after diagnosis
Oprince von Nemesis (Fedor del Nasi + Helena v. Nemesis) 10.05.2010 - 17.03.2015
Unikaukia v. Trokadero ( Fedor del Nasi - Nappanuna v. Trokadero) 2011-04-09 - still alive DCM (diagnose since 09/2014
Xenos del Nasi 19.12.2008 (Ramon Betelges-Gloria del Nasi) ,diagnosed by ultrasound since 06/2013

Is the win worth the price?
 
#22 ·
Is the win worth the price?
You have no right to crucify couple of breeders because of the breeds cardio problem..

The problem has been there all along, they did not create it..

There is no dobermann on the face of the earth 100% safe from DCM!!

Anyone that says or believes the opposite is a lier

No matter how many so called "health tests" you do, it will only be used to fool puppy buyers into believing they are buying a healthy puppy..which is NOT true!!
 
#31 ·
Yes, he is 8 years old now...(mentally still a spoilt puppy tho)

I never had any luck with calendar voting...Big majority of the voters being from your side of the big pond never favoured any of my big headed dogs :)

That's why I never enter any calendar competitions..not interested..

I made an exception last year and entered a puppy photo, which did not even make it past the selection for those to be voted...

I believe I know a little about the breed & being an amateur photographer at big Dobermann events, I know a little about taking photos of dogs..

I just don't like being judged on things I know, by people who don't have a clue..

Thank you for the thought to...you always have my respect.




.
 
#34 ·
WOw, so much good information for me to dissect. I will finish reading the thread more in depth later tonight but I wanted to clarify what i said about eastern european breeders, because afterwards I realized how prejudicial and unfair my original statements were. In addition to finding their dogs beautiful, I also understand that many are upstanding people and dog caretakers. My concern is both about health testing but also the basic fact that I will have to send thousands overseas to someone I don't know, in confidence that they will send me a puppy after it is 8 weeks old. If they decide to send nothing, I have almost no recourse and legal action will cost as much as getting another dog.

Iceman, you don't have to convince me that Euros are beautiful dogs. I also accept that the doberman is not a healthy breed. But do you have any comment/advice on the aspect of trusting someone so far away to perform their end of the contract? My fear is that they can just send nothing and I will not have any recourse. This concern I think is valid. And that's not to mention the concern that I will get whichever puppy is left over after the locals get their picks.
 
#38 ·
ScoobyDobieDoo- Kudo’s for doing some research and giving your purchase of a dog careful thought. You made a contradictory statement which leads one to conclude that you might be a bit confused. You asked for opinions so here’s some food for thought.

On the one hand you stated “As for why I might seem less interested in American Euro breeders, I really don't want a working dog and that's what most American euro breeders seem to work towards. I actually just immediately lose interest if I see anything like IPO3.”

Then however you went on to say “Other than the great fat heads on Euros, I am interested in their temperament. I'd probably like a pup with a lower drive but I think a Doberman's temperament is more than just their drive. My ideal dog would be exceptionally brave, fearless and confident. From what I have read European dobermans exhibit this more”.

First off, one must understand that “brave, fearless and confident” is expressed in vastly different ways depending on a dogs breed. A hound expresses “brave, fearless and confident” differently from a Border Collie who expresses “brave, fearless and confident” differently from a Terrier who expresses “brave, fearless and confident” differently from a Protection breed like the German Shepherd Dog or Dobermann.

Even though the Border Collie and German Shepherd Dog are both herders, one cannot use the same measuring stick when determining “brave, fearless and confident”. When correctly bred, they have different temperament’s that must be measured or tested differently.

A Rhodesian Ridgeback is expected to be “brave, fearless and confident” in the face of a lion not a human. A Dobermann is expected to be “brave, fearless and confident” when faced with an aggressive human but not a lion. This is why it doesn’t make sense when you state that you want a “brave, fearless and confident” Dobermann but then say that you “immediately lose interest if I see anything like IPO3.”

You are correct that “a Doberman's temperament is more than just their drive”. This is especially true when you factor in the fact that many people mistake energy for drive. A dog can be downright hyper-active but still have low drive.

Without delving into specifics and only speaking in generalities , “brave, fearless and confident” is what separates an IPO/Working line temperament from the Show/Pet lines. If you have a Dobermann from Show/Pet lines that is “brave, fearless and confident” it could participate in IPO. That is a very simplistic, general statement devoid of specifics, but it gets to the heart of the matter.

“………From what I have read European dobermans exhibit this more”. The reason why is that Working breeds from Euro lines, (whether they are hunting dogs, herding dogs or protection dogs) are considered to have better working temperament because in theory they have to meet at least a minimal standard before breeding. Again that is a general statement that is obviously not 100% accurate all the time.

I don’t have time to type more right now but the bottom line is that without an objective and measured means of judging “brave, fearless and confident” those just become meaningless words anyone can claim applies to their dogs or kennel. IF those characteristics are important to you then seeing IPO3 in the pedigree should entice you rather than disinterest you.

You will still need to determine if a particular breeder is producing the type of dog you are after, and you will still have to deal with the fact that nobody can predict with 100% accuracy how a pup will turn out. I just thought that I’d try to help out since your contradicting statements indicate some confusion.
 
#39 ·
Thanks a lot for all of that, honestly. It was a really interesting read.

I think what I meant by that IPO3 comment is that I'm looking for moderation in the dog: not too driven but also not too lacking in purpose. And, I figured if a breeder works their dog to IPO3-level that breeder must be really interested in dog sports to spend so much time and money training their dog. It would make sense that those breeders care more about breeding for high drive.

I also understand that nothing's guaranteed. I get that you can get a high drive dog, confident dobe in America and you could also get a low drive fearful dog in Europe. Likewise, I might end up with a Euro that's thinner than an American dobes. Wouldn't it be ironic if I decide to get a dog from Europe and it turns out smaller and less driven than an American dobe? So it's all a crapshoot but it seems like the odds for the traits I want are higher in some of these European casinos :grin2:
 
#45 ·
Doberman4life, thx for your post! My boy recently passed from DCM just shy of his 4th bday. Maxim Di AltoBello, perhaps unsurprisingly, was his grandfather. I say that because it seems those lines are littered w DCM. Message boards aren't the most reliable yet I haven't seen any on the opposite end, boasting their dog has lived past 8. Anyone out there have an AltoBello dog w longevity? Perhaps % of DCM in those lines are overstated, but I can confirm in my case it wasn't.

I understand there will always be an inherent risk of DCM, but I have no interest in purchasing ultra high risk dogs & that's what I believe I had.

I would love to see that list you mentioned! The genetic tests aren't accurate yet & I believe a list like yours is the best, most accurate and perhaps the only current defense we have against choosing ultra high risk dogs..

I would greatly appreciate it! Thanks in advance!
 
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