What has happened to all the European kennels? - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
Breeding and Breeders Know a good Breeder? Are you a Breeder? Please post here and let us know

 15Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-14-2016, 07:26 PM Thread Starter
Lil Pup
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 10
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit ScoobyDobieDoo's Gallery
Thanks: 43
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
 
What has happened to all the European kennels?

Hello everyone,

I have been researching getting a Doberman for a long time. I've done a lot of research but I'm still pretty far from being ready to take a puppy in. This research has included researching breeders, their reputation, their dogs pedigree and their dogs' health clearances. It's also included reading hundreds (no joke, hundreds) of threads here on DT about breeders, raising puppies and threads regarding specific Doberman breeders.

What I"m noticing is that a lot of the European breeders/kennels for which there are DT threads on have seemingly disappeared. Either their websites are down or it seems like it was last updated years ago. Can I ask what has happened to these breeders? And since all the previously recommended European kennels have disappeared, what are some active European kennels that DT approves of?

The websites/kennels that were previously recommended on DT but have now gone offline include Del Nasi, Alto Bello, Bell Lavoro, Zoosfery (last litter update was in 2013), among many others I can't recall off the top of my head but whose websites are dead.

I'm certainly not settled on any of these breeders, nor do these breeders represent the kind of doberman I am interested in. But I am just curious as to what is happening to these sites/breeders, is it a case of them retiring or just a case of them no longer updating their sites. Thank you. I am new and still several months away from being prepared to even contact breeders about upcoming litters but I plan on making use of the great resource DT offers.
ScoobyDobieDoo is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ScoobyDobieDoo For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-14-2016), Dictator (06-17-2016)
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-14-2016, 08:00 PM
Lil Dog
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 71
Location: Kentucky
Dogs Name: Andella's A Fire Within (Dean)
Dogs Age: 4-29-2016
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit ChazTheDerperman's Gallery
Thanks: 134
Thanked 135 Times in 44 Posts
           
First of all, many breeders just let their websites go by the wayside due to the inherent time commitments of being a breeder, including raising puppies, pedigree research, and titling their breeding stock. Also, many worthwhile breeders find that after a certain point, they no longer need a website as most of their puppy buyers find out about them through word of mouth. So they don't see the need to update their sites. I know of a few breeders who merely update their own Facebook as a substitute to updating a website.

As far as the specific breeders you mentioned, I know Alto Bello is no longer highly recommended around here because they send their dogs to some sketchy international shows that leaves the validity of their titles in question, but I don't know much about the others. You could probably still get into contact with them when the time comes if you look hard enough for some contact info
ChazTheDerperman is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ChazTheDerperman For This Useful Post:
Darkevs (06-14-2016), ScoobyDobieDoo (07-02-2016)
post #3 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-14-2016, 09:52 PM
Got mutt?
 
Rosemary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 11,744
Location: Southeast Texas
Dogs Name: Ilka (Mutt), Leo (GSD); Lily (APBT)
Titles: They have titles from a total of 7 different organizations
Dogs Age: Ilka 6; Leo 4; Lily 2; Lucky 2000-2014
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Rosemary's Gallery
Thanks: 35,128
Thanked 27,358 Times in 9,159 Posts
                     
Altobello isn't not recommended because of sketchy titles. Lots of European dogs have sketchy titles, especially working titles or ZTPs. It's the fact that Altobello sells dogs to places like Kimbertal that really gives them a bad name.
kmbeach22 likes this.


Lily Dale- A Melody Unchained ITD PKD-T ADP-L3
CA Speed Queen Leontine Von Washateria ATD PKD-T D-CRO-Preliminary ADP-L3
Ilka Of Pear Orchard Cemetery BN RE CA CGC ETD PKD-T CRO-1 NCO-1 ADP-L3
Lucky Rat Dog CGC ~2000-2014~ Requiescat In Pace
“Dance as if no one who is qualified to commit you is watching!” Julie Flanery, Founder of Rally FrEe
Rosemary is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Rosemary For This Useful Post:
Beaumont67 (06-16-2016), ChazTheDerperman (06-14-2016), dobebug (06-15-2016), falnfenix (06-15-2016), kmbeach22 (06-15-2016), prairiefire (06-14-2016)
 
post #4 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-14-2016, 11:43 PM
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,035
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Gretchen and Maverick
Titles: CGCA, RE, RATN and Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 21 mo and 6mo.
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 6,625
Thanked 4,015 Times in 1,782 Posts
Images: 14
                     
"The websites/kennels that were previously recommended on DT but have now gone offline include Del Nasi, Alto Bello, Bell Lavoro, Zoosfery (last litter update was in 2013), among many others I can't recall off the top of my head but whose websites are dead."

Altobellos lines are filled with cardio so is Del Nazi. See they used to say Euro dogs were healthier. All dogs appear healthier when you AREN'T health testing like in the US. Now their puppy buyers are all talking on online FB groups and learning about the tragic state of their dogs health. Altobello who's #1 dog that they squandered tons of money into conveniently died of food poisoning but oddly enough (not really) most of his progeny has died from DCM. Del Nazi was another #1 dog. Imagine how many euro breeders (well known for line breeding/in breeding) are now having these issues?

im glad I had my suspicions a while back and went with a reputable US breeder who has euro lines that contain longevity.
Beaumont67, 4x4bike ped and Bradk like this.
Gretchen_Red is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Gretchen_Red For This Useful Post:
Beaumont67 (06-16-2016), kmbeach22 (07-22-2016)
post #5 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 01:40 AM Thread Starter
Lil Pup
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 10
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit ScoobyDobieDoo's Gallery
Thanks: 43
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
"The websites/kennels that were previously recommended on DT but have now gone offline include Del Nasi, Alto Bello, Bell Lavoro, Zoosfery (last litter update was in 2013), among many others I can't recall off the top of my head but whose websites are dead."

Altobellos lines are filled with cardio so is Del Nazi. See they used to say Euro dogs were healthier. All dogs appear healthier when you AREN'T health testing like in the US. Now their puppy buyers are all talking on online FB groups and learning about the tragic state of their dogs health. Altobello who's #1 dog that they squandered tons of money into conveniently died of food poisoning but oddly enough (not really) most of his progeny has died from DCM. Del Nazi was another #1 dog. Imagine how many euro breeders (well known for line breeding/in breeding) are now having these issues?

im glad I had my suspicions a while back and went with a reputable US breeder who has euro lines that contain longevity.
Wow, I had no idea it was that bad and widespread. I didn't mention anything about Betelges because I had already read the threads on them

Like I said, I'm still months away from deciding anything and I might even decide ultimately to not get a Doberman at all. But right now, Eastern Europe is a backup plan for me. I really like some UK dogs I'm seeing and I feel more comfortable buying an animal in the first world (no offense to anyone! I know great people in less developed countries).

As for why I might seem less interested in American Euro breeders, I really don't want a working dog and that's what most American euro breeders seem to work towards. I actually just immediately lose interest if I see anything like IPO3.

Other than the great fat heads on Euros, I am interested in their temperament. I'd probably like a pup with a lower drive but I think a Doberman's temperament is more than just their drive. My ideal dog would be exceptionally brave, fearless and confident. From what I have read European dobermans exhibit this more. Again, this is all based on second-hand knowledge and my experience with my uncle's imported Doberman when I was a kid, so I'm open to hearing other opinions. But confidence and fearlessness are very important to me because I think a fearful doberman is a dangerous doberman. I know a lot of this comes down to training. But I ideally want a dog who will be aware of someone walking up behind it on the street but confident enough not to be afraid that someone is behind them. And I think that describes the doberman perfectly.
Bradk likes this.
ScoobyDobieDoo is offline  
post #6 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 11:13 AM
Got mutt?
 
Rosemary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 11,744
Location: Southeast Texas
Dogs Name: Ilka (Mutt), Leo (GSD); Lily (APBT)
Titles: They have titles from a total of 7 different organizations
Dogs Age: Ilka 6; Leo 4; Lily 2; Lucky 2000-2014
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Rosemary's Gallery
Thanks: 35,128
Thanked 27,358 Times in 9,159 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobyDobieDoo View Post
-------

Other than the great fat heads on Euros, I am interested in their temperament. I'd probably like a pup with a lower drive but I think a Doberman's temperament is more than just their drive. My ideal dog would be exceptionally brave, fearless and confident. From what I have read European dobermans exhibit this more. Again, this is all based on second-hand knowledge and my experience with my uncle's imported Doberman when I was a kid, so I'm open to hearing other opinions. But confidence and fearlessness are very important to me because I think a fearful doberman is a dangerous doberman. I know a lot of this comes down to training. But I ideally want a dog who will be aware of someone walking up behind it on the street but confident enough not to be afraid that someone is behind them. And I think that describes the doberman perfectly.

Any fearful dog is a dangerous dog, be they Chihuahua sized, Mastiff sized, or anywhere in between. Any dog with a sound temperament would be able to do what you describe, including my BYB German Shepherd. European show line Dobes don't have an exclusivity on that temperament, and a lot of them actually don't have it at all.

Like GR said, an awful lot of dogs from an awful lot of European kennels seem to die from snakebites, being poisoned, or hit by cars....


PS: Those "fat heads" (your words, not mine), with no refinement, are probably one of the things I most dislike in Euro show line dogs.


Lily Dale- A Melody Unchained ITD PKD-T ADP-L3
CA Speed Queen Leontine Von Washateria ATD PKD-T D-CRO-Preliminary ADP-L3
Ilka Of Pear Orchard Cemetery BN RE CA CGC ETD PKD-T CRO-1 NCO-1 ADP-L3
Lucky Rat Dog CGC ~2000-2014~ Requiescat In Pace
“Dance as if no one who is qualified to commit you is watching!” Julie Flanery, Founder of Rally FrEe
Rosemary is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Rosemary For This Useful Post:
Beaumont67 (06-16-2016), bigfootlives (06-15-2016), dobebug (06-17-2016), kmbeach22 (06-15-2016), ScoobyDobieDoo (06-15-2016)
post #7 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 12:51 PM
Big Pup
 
Dober33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 46
Location: UK
Dogs Name: Monty

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Dober33's Gallery
Thanks: 41
Thanked 71 Times in 23 Posts
       
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobyDobieDoo View Post
I really like some UK dogs I'm seeing and I feel more comfortable buying an animal in the first world (no offense to anyone! I know great people in less developed countries).
I'm sure your aware but thought I'd mention it just in case, if you did look at a Doberman from the UK they wouldn't be cropped or docked
Dober33 is offline  
post #8 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 01:06 PM
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,035
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Gretchen and Maverick
Titles: CGCA, RE, RATN and Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 21 mo and 6mo.
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 6,625
Thanked 4,015 Times in 1,782 Posts
Images: 14
                     
I'm not sure where you're from but I know Foxfire dogs have REALLY beautiful heads, so does Holly Woods. Holly Woods has a puppy right now but they want it to go to a show home. It is a gorgeous dog! I believe both breeders have some South American lines there. SA have some very beautiful heads!

Have you looked at SA? They look like a cross between Euro and Amer. lines. They're temperament also seems like a cross, which I like.

Also, AM lines might have a temperament you like. I know my girl has a wonderful temperament. So much so a judge is looking at her for their next puppy and will be going with me to nationals to look at some potential studs. She's currently focused on showing but we have been dabbling in IPO, I'm just waiting for her to get finished. I know many AM dobes doing very well in IPO.

Last edited by Gretchen_Red; 06-15-2016 at 01:12 PM.
Gretchen_Red is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Gretchen_Red For This Useful Post:
Beaumont67 (06-16-2016), kmbeach22 (06-15-2016), Rosemary (06-15-2016), ScoobyDobieDoo (06-15-2016)
post #9 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 01:19 PM
Big Pup
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 36
Location: Ontario, Canada
Dogs Name: Chewy
Titles: SD-SA-SP, CGN
Dogs Age: April 2011
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit corminta's Gallery
Thanks: 12
Thanked 58 Times in 24 Posts
       
Since I am in to working lines more then show I am not sure what the market looks like in northern Europe.
However there are several very serious working dobe breeders in the Scandinavian countries that are worth looking in to.
With that said several are very hesitant at selling to NA buyers after having sold dogs in the past that have been cropped / docked after exporting against the breeders wish. Anyone looking at working line dogs should take a look there though.
For exampel, in Sweden you can't even register a puppy unless it's parents have done certain health and mentality tests which is way more than you can say about breeding over here. Also, all titles and most health screenings (HD, heart for example) are public.
Bradk likes this.
corminta is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to corminta For This Useful Post:
ScoobyDobieDoo (07-23-2016)
post #10 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 03:35 PM
Big Pup
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 41
Location: Austria
Dogs Name: Lilly, Yuki & Era
Titles: no
Dogs Age: 10, 6, & 3
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Doberman4Life's Gallery
Thanks: 39
Thanked 115 Times in 27 Posts
           
Im from Austria.... i can tell you no big name breeders are worth your search.... ALL lines have DCM in them there are no DCM free lines and probably will never be again (if they open studbook and we are allowed to outcross in a breeding program then maybe)

If you need a Show line Doberman dont look to Serbia they have no checking on there dogs at all.... most dont even do any tests and a whole lot send blood to the US to Test DCM1 they get back free and they sell puppys saying there line is DCM free what is by all means not true....

We have a DCM list where you see who died from DCM who has aktuall DCM.... i can link you that if you like for your reasearch then you get a bit of more picture what lines have more DCM than others...

at the moment we have 2 reputable breeders in Austria .... they will be having a litter soon i can just absolutly recomend this paairing of Di Matario (i think website is down at the moment because of the Show beeing planed and something went wrong, if i had money and room i would get myself a female....).
I know of 2 in germany but only one is activ and has no litter this year or next year for certain....
I can give you many aktiv breeders over the whole of europe but i havent had a look into them yet since i was concentrating on finding a male for breeding the last 2 years....

so if you need help just give me a shout
Bradk likes this.

Doberman4Life is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Doberman4Life For This Useful Post:
Beaumont67 (06-16-2016), Gretchen_Red (06-15-2016), ScoobyDobieDoo (06-15-2016)
post #11 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 03:46 PM Thread Starter
Lil Pup
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 10
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit ScoobyDobieDoo's Gallery
Thanks: 43
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
 
I just want to clarify something before anyone thinks too highly of me , I haven't ruled out eastern european breeders entirely. I'm still months away from a decision so things may change. Right now it's not my top choice but if I find the right breeder I would consider it because some of the dogs over there look amazing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
Any fearful dog is a dangerous dog, be they Chihuahua sized, Mastiff sized, or anywhere in between. Any dog with a sound temperament would be able to do what you describe, including my BYB German Shepherd. European show line Dobes don't have an exclusivity on that temperament, and a lot of them actually don't have it at all.

Like GR said, an awful lot of dogs from an awful lot of European kennels seem to die from snakebites, being poisoned, or hit by cars....


PS: Those "fat heads" (your words, not mine), with no refinement, are probably one of the things I most dislike in Euro show line dogs.
I think we might agree on the euro heads. Some of the males on their websites look like they're slobbering out the sides of their mouths. I wouldn't want that, but there's a lot to like.
ScoobyDobieDoo is offline  
post #12 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 05:17 PM
ShutUp an Scratch My Butt
 
Sam1491's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,762
Location: MN
Dogs Name: Mabel - Bubba
Dogs Age: 5/01/10 - 5/14/11
Gallery Pics: 88
Visit Sam1491's Gallery
Thanks: 13,754
Thanked 14,739 Times in 4,981 Posts
Images: 88
                     
OP where are you located? That will help people point out worthwhile breeders much easier.

The Red Devil Diva & Her Shamelessly Obedient Human
Bubba: Allergy King and Chief of Naps
Sam1491 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Sam1491 For This Useful Post:
Doberman4Life (06-15-2016)
post #13 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 07:05 PM Thread Starter
Lil Pup
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 10
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit ScoobyDobieDoo's Gallery
Thanks: 43
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
 
I am from CA. There are some breeders here with the look I like but they seem to mostly breed working dogs. And from the limited information I've gathered, it seems some of them might want more than I'm willing to spend on a dog. I don't want backyard breeder prices by any means and I understand the cost of living/breeding in CA is high but I have a rough range in mind for when I do choose a breeder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberman4Life View Post
Im from Austria.... i can tell you no big name breeders are worth your search.... ALL lines have DCM in them there are no DCM free lines and probably will never be again (if they open studbook and we are allowed to outcross in a breeding program then maybe)

If you need a Show line Doberman dont look to Serbia they have no checking on there dogs at all.... most dont even do any tests and a whole lot send blood to the US to Test DCM1 they get back free and they sell puppys saying there line is DCM free what is by all means not true....

We have a DCM list where you see who died from DCM who has aktuall DCM.... i can link you that if you like for your reasearch then you get a bit of more picture what lines have more DCM than others...

at the moment we have 2 reputable breeders in Austria .... they will be having a litter soon i can just absolutly recomend this paairing of Di Matario (i think website is down at the moment because of the Show beeing planed and something went wrong, if i had money and room i would get myself a female....).
I know of 2 in germany but only one is activ and has no litter this year or next year for certain....
I can give you many aktiv breeders over the whole of europe but i havent had a look into them yet since i was concentrating on finding a male for breeding the last 2 years....

so if you need help just give me a shout
Thank you so much. I would love to see that list and add it to my resources. For whatever reason, I never considered Austrian kennels, I guess they never popped up in my searches. Can I ask about the 2 you are familiar with? It seems like most German kennels are really big on work and protection. For that reason, I stopped looking into German breeders.

I live in a relatively safe area so I don't really need protection and I don't have much work for it to do. However, pit bulls are very trendy in LA and you see them in all kinds of neighborhoods (not just rough neighborhoods, I have friends with pit bulls) so I would like a dobe confident enough to not feel threatened if a pit bull curiously walks up to it.
ScoobyDobieDoo is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to ScoobyDobieDoo For This Useful Post:
Doberman4Life (06-16-2016)
post #14 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-15-2016, 07:23 PM
Super Moderator
 
MeadowCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,463
Location: MN
Dogs Name: Richter; Sypha; RIP Shanoa & Simon
Titles: Richter: CAA, L1V, NW1, L1I, L1E, ACT1, WAC
Dogs Age: d.o.b. 7/13/2012; d.o.b. 12/6/2015
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit MeadowCat's Gallery
Thanks: 41,798
Thanked 47,328 Times in 13,016 Posts
Images: 1
                     
Click here to find out how MeadowCat became a supporter
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoobyDobieDoo View Post
Wow, I had no idea it was that bad and widespread. I didn't mention anything about Betelges because I had already read the threads on them

Like I said, I'm still months away from deciding anything and I might even decide ultimately to not get a Doberman at all. But right now, Eastern Europe is a backup plan for me. I really like some UK dogs I'm seeing and I feel more comfortable buying an animal in the first world (no offense to anyone! I know great people in less developed countries).

As for why I might seem less interested in American Euro breeders, I really don't want a working dog and that's what most American euro breeders seem to work towards. I actually just immediately lose interest if I see anything like IPO3.

Other than the great fat heads on Euros, I am interested in their temperament. I'd probably like a pup with a lower drive but I think a Doberman's temperament is more than just their drive. My ideal dog would be exceptionally brave, fearless and confident. From what I have read European dobermans exhibit this more. Again, this is all based on second-hand knowledge and my experience with my uncle's imported Doberman when I was a kid, so I'm open to hearing other opinions. But confidence and fearlessness are very important to me because I think a fearful doberman is a dangerous doberman. I know a lot of this comes down to training. But I ideally want a dog who will be aware of someone walking up behind it on the street but confident enough not to be afraid that someone is behind them. And I think that describes the doberman perfectly.
Bold mine. You are vastly misinformed. First, you should meet my puppy. She's 6 months old, and is absolutely fearless. She is insanely confident. All American lines. The world belongs to her.

Second, meet my four year old, again, American lines. Working aptitude certified, several Nosework titles, participates in agility (almost ready to trial), lure coursing titled...incredibly confident.

You're right...a fearful Doberman is a liability. But a well-bred Doberman, whether European OR American, should NOT be fearful. If you are seeing fearful dogs, those are poorly bred dogs, or breeders/lines you should avoid. Careful research is always important. You can absolutely get what you want here in the US, along with strong breeder support, which I personally think is absolutely critical to someone new to the breed.

If you are in the US, and this is your first Doberman, I think you'd be better served finding a good, ethical American line breeder, because they will match you with the right dog for you, and be far more available to support you through puppyhood (and beyond). There's no reason you can't get the exact type of dog you describe right here. I'm not saying that to be anti-Euro, either, but I don't think someone new to the breed is equipped to do the proper research and screening to weed out the poor breeders in Europe who are quite clearly not going to send you the best of their dogs (if you can even land on an ethical breeder there).
triciakoontz and Gretchen_Red like this.


SigPic1
by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA L1V NW1 L1I L1E ACT1 WAC & Sirai's Golden Masquerade
“You cannot get through a single day without having an impact on the world around you.
What you do makes a difference, and you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make.”
― Jane Goodall
MeadowCat is offline  
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to MeadowCat For This Useful Post:
Beaumont67 (06-16-2016), bigfootlives (06-16-2016), ChazTheDerperman (06-15-2016), dobebug (06-17-2016), falnfenix (06-16-2016), greenkouki (06-16-2016), Rosemary (06-15-2016), Sam1491 (06-16-2016), ScoobyDobieDoo (06-16-2016), triciakoontz (06-16-2016)
post #15 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 07:05 AM
Alpha
 
iceman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,738
Location: Cyprus
Dogs Name: Kaiser/Nika/Ben/Chiko
Titles: FCI_INTCh/GChCY/ChMD/ ChBG/ChMNE/ChSM/ChAZE/ CHGE/ChTW/BH/IPO1
Dogs Age: 3-5-2008/4-14-2010/03-06-2014
Gallery Pics: 62
Visit iceman's Gallery
Thanks: 1,357
Thanked 5,005 Times in 1,179 Posts
Images: 62
                     
Click here to find out how iceman became a supporter
Yet another thread where "respectable" American breeders are being glorified praising the NA dobermann while (some) European breeders are being ignorantly demonized at the same time the "Euro" dogs critisized because of their different look to the NA dobermann..

There are poor breeders everywhere breeding poor dogs..do not categorize them according to their geographical location..
Bradk likes this.

iceman is offline  
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to iceman For This Useful Post:
alan j. (06-16-2016), bigfootlives (06-16-2016), Darkevs (06-17-2016), dobebug (06-17-2016), Feverhaus (06-16-2016), Kansadobe (06-16-2016), Pwca (06-26-2016), ScoobyDobieDoo (06-16-2016), SieYa (06-16-2016), triciakoontz (06-16-2016)
post #16 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 10:09 AM
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,035
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Gretchen and Maverick
Titles: CGCA, RE, RATN and Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 21 mo and 6mo.
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 6,625
Thanked 4,015 Times in 1,782 Posts
Images: 14
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman View Post
Yet another thread where "respectable" American breeders are being glorified praising the NA dobermann while (some) European breeders are being ignorantly demonized at the same time the "Euro" dogs critisized because of their different look to the NA dobermann..

There are poor breeders everywhere breeding poor dogs..do not categorize them according to their geographical location..
I disagree and I agree with you.

I don't think or didn't read, that anyone criticized the look of the Euro. Perhaps I missed it.

I also don't feel like Europe was being demonized. There are bad breeders here! If he would have asked about Kimbertal or Britton or Family dobes my advice would have been the same. Stick with a breeder you can trust because they aren't known for selling healthy puppies. My opinion is I wouldn't look overseas because it takes a lot of research and knowledge and really having an "in" with the breeders to know who you can trust. Just as in the U.S. the "bigger, flashier well-known kennels and websites" in Europe don't seem to be producing very healthy dogs, for the most part. I think if someone lived in Europe and wanted a dobe from the US it would also require an "in" because those flashy websites sell, but they don't always sell the best of dogs.

But there are great heads here in the US and there are great temperaments and they are with breeders that we know and can recommend.
Bradk likes this.
Gretchen_Red is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Gretchen_Red For This Useful Post:
dobebug (06-17-2016), Doberman4Life (06-16-2016), melbrod (06-16-2016), ScoobyDobieDoo (06-16-2016)
post #17 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 10:27 AM
Got mutt?
 
Rosemary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 11,744
Location: Southeast Texas
Dogs Name: Ilka (Mutt), Leo (GSD); Lily (APBT)
Titles: They have titles from a total of 7 different organizations
Dogs Age: Ilka 6; Leo 4; Lily 2; Lucky 2000-2014
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Rosemary's Gallery
Thanks: 35,128
Thanked 27,358 Times in 9,159 Posts
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman View Post
Yet another thread where "respectable" American breeders are being glorified praising the NA dobermann while (some) European breeders are being ignorantly demonized at the same time the "Euro" dogs critisized because of their different look to the NA dobermann..

There are poor breeders everywhere breeding poor dogs..do not categorize them according to their geographical location..
So, you're saying that you think that Altobello (Europe) and Kimbertal (USA) are good breeders? And that no one else can have their own preference on looks? Because that's certainly what you implied.


Lily Dale- A Melody Unchained ITD PKD-T ADP-L3
CA Speed Queen Leontine Von Washateria ATD PKD-T D-CRO-Preliminary ADP-L3
Ilka Of Pear Orchard Cemetery BN RE CA CGC ETD PKD-T CRO-1 NCO-1 ADP-L3
Lucky Rat Dog CGC ~2000-2014~ Requiescat In Pace
“Dance as if no one who is qualified to commit you is watching!” Julie Flanery, Founder of Rally FrEe
Rosemary is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Rosemary For This Useful Post:
dobebug (06-17-2016), Doberman4Life (06-16-2016)
post #18 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 10:27 AM
Eschew Prolixity
 
melbrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,246
Location: Colorado
Dogs Name: Kip, Capri (RIP)
Titles: Kip Mr. Behavior; Capri Mis-Behavior, DS#15
Dogs Age: 10 years Dec. 15, 2005, 7 years Dec. 14, 2008--January 20, 2016
Gallery Pics: 6
Visit melbrod's Gallery
Thanks: 38,072
Thanked 37,579 Times in 11,709 Posts
Images: 6
                     
Click here to find out how melbrod became a supporter
I don’t know that most of these posts are necessarily demonizing European dogs as much as pointing out how difficult it is to properly vet breeders in Europe and other parts of the world when one lives in the USA. (Notice a couple of the responders are from Europe too.) It is harder to travel to check out the conditions at a kennel when it is in another country, and communications can be difficult too. It is not as easy to keep in touch with a breeder to get the answers to any problems a puppy owner may have when the breeder is in another country. Language may be a barrier; distance is another.

For a beginning dobe owner in particular, who may have lots of questions, and who hasn’t had experience with shipping a dog across borders, a more “local” breeder may be a better choice.

Both “groups” are teeming with problem breeders, but there are unfortunately a number of poor breeders here in the USA who use the Euro label as a marketing technique to try to make their dogs seem rarer and better than other dobes in the country. The mystique given to the term “Euro”, in this country at least, can be very enticing to some folks new to the breed who may get misled by all the propaganda those bad breeders throw at them.

"Caveat Emptor” for ANY doberman buyer is more the sense I’m getting from this thread.

Last edited by melbrod; 06-16-2016 at 10:33 AM.
melbrod is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to melbrod For This Useful Post:
dobebug (06-17-2016), Gretchen_Red (06-16-2016), MeadowCat (06-16-2016), Rosemary (06-16-2016), Sam1491 (06-16-2016), triciakoontz (06-16-2016)
post #19 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 11:04 AM
Owned by Dobes since 1975
 
Darkevs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 30,365
Location: BC, Canada!
Dogs Name: Charlie & Naughty Dottie!
Titles: BDIH & BND
Dogs Age: 7 & 2 1/2
Gallery Pics: 46
Visit Darkevs's Gallery
Thanks: 85,093
Thanked 49,483 Times in 19,031 Posts
Images: 46
                     
Have you at all considered checking out a few rescue Doberman?

So many great dogs looking for homes.

Big ones, small ones, fat heads, non-fat heads, all colors, up on leg, short, stocky, lean, male, female, young, old... Etc.

Good luck with your search for just the right dog.

Darkevs is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Darkevs For This Useful Post:
falnfenix (06-16-2016), greenkouki (06-16-2016), melbrod (06-16-2016), Rosemary (06-16-2016), ScoobyDobieDoo (06-16-2016)
post #20 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 11:15 AM
Alpha
 
iceman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,738
Location: Cyprus
Dogs Name: Kaiser/Nika/Ben/Chiko
Titles: FCI_INTCh/GChCY/ChMD/ ChBG/ChMNE/ChSM/ChAZE/ CHGE/ChTW/BH/IPO1
Dogs Age: 3-5-2008/4-14-2010/03-06-2014
Gallery Pics: 62
Visit iceman's Gallery
Thanks: 1,357
Thanked 5,005 Times in 1,179 Posts
Images: 62
                     
Click here to find out how iceman became a supporter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
So, you're saying that you think that Altobello (Europe) and Kimbertal (USA) are good breeders? And that no one else can have their own preference on looks? Because that's certainly what you implied.
I as far as I know Kimbertal does not show or work their dogs, and even hides the dam of their litters...in my book he is a commercial BYB only in it for the money..

As for Altobello, you might not like the number of litters he registers, but he does show & work his dogs..and they do get good results at proper respectable International shows..

I would also like to comment about Del Nasi which another google expert slagged off earleier in this thread..Simon Baranja is one of the most respected breeders in the world (not just Europe) for those who matter!!

One google expert commented above that these breeders take their dogs to sketchy International shows & get sketchy titles..

well...I will not go very far...last weekend in Pisa ITALY was one of the most prestigious Dobermann speciality show of the year, Campionato Sociale di Allevamento AIAD 2016

Here is few of the results

AIAD SIEGER 2016 - ASTERIX del Nasi (Tahi-Reme Max - Juga del Nasi)

Intermediate class males
Exc.1, CAC - HAZAR di Altobello (Da Vinci el Greco Nero - Tijana Daria di Altobello)

Champion Class
Exc.1 - MILLION $ di Altobello (Maxim di Altobello - Tijana Daria di Altobello)

Campionato
AIAD SIEGER 2016 - ATLAS SOLO GOMEZ v. X-Ta-Sea (Sologomez del Fiorsilva - Methodia Mia di Altobello)


for those interested, full results >> HERE

iceman is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to iceman For This Useful Post:
ScoobyDobieDoo (06-16-2016), SieYa (06-16-2016)
post #21 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 11:50 AM
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,035
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Gretchen and Maverick
Titles: CGCA, RE, RATN and Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 21 mo and 6mo.
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 6,625
Thanked 4,015 Times in 1,782 Posts
Images: 14
                     
Beata di Altobello(Fedor del Nasi - Golda di Altobello)2007-08-01 / 2012, Cause of death 05-year / DCM
Bianca vom Kainachtal 27.08.2005-15.06.2015 (Godwin Asdemi di Matario x Helena del Fiorsilva) DCM Diagnose, cause of death: cancer
Bombastic Cody di Altobello (Maxim di Altobello x Prima di Altobello) 23.06.2009 - 23.06.2014 DCM
Oncemore Evita ( Kant Di Altobello - Santa Julf Vanilla ) 22.11.2006 - 03.05.2015. Died of DCM
Altobello Calvados ( Master Max of Djarmati x Sankt Kreal Hrustalnaya Mechta ) 01.12.2006 - .02.2008 suddden death in the garden
Beata di Altobello (Fedor del Nasi - Golda di Altobello) 2007-08-01 / 2012-00-00
Cause of death 05-year / DCM
Bombastic Cody di Altobello dob 23.06.2009-23.06.2014 (Maxim di Altobello x Prima di Altobello DCM
VITA VOM GEBRANNTEN WALDE 26/09/2004-15/03/2010 (FABIUS RENEWAL - BOMBA DAX DI ALTOBELLO) died DCM after 6 months of treatment.
Aristocrat Raiden Sky (Fedor del Nasi x Hassia Betelges) 10.1.2006 - april 2012 died from DCM
Beata di Altobello(Fedor del Nasi - Golda di Altobello)2007-08-01 / 2012, Cause of death 05-year / DCM
Czaar Ginga House (Fedor del Nasi x Inca Ginga House) 3.10.2007 - october 2013 died from DCM
Horus di casa Fox (Elisir di casaFox x Fedor del nasi) 4.5 years
PACO PRIDE Black Novak 06.04.2009 (Fedor Del Nasi x Lowa Lotus) died 2015 02
Alias Raiden Sky (Fedor del Nasi x Hassia Betelges) 6,5 DCM
Armageddon von Ambassador ( Zemic's Arwen- Fedor Del Nasi) 24.10.2010-01.03.2014
Beata di Altobello (Fedor del Nasi - Golda di Altobello) 2007-08-01 / 2012-00-00
Cause of death 05-year / DCM
Dark Velvet Dobi Royal (Latino Lorenco v Cobra x Esprit del Nasi)- 04.04.2008 - 29.09.2012 dies in her bed.
Manuela Betelges (zedor del nasi x night betelges) 14.05.2011-09.08.2015 died of DCM, one month after diagnosis
Oprince von Nemesis (Fedor del Nasi + Helena v. Nemesis) 10.05.2010 - 17.03.2015
Unikaukia v. Trokadero ( Fedor del Nasi - Nappanuna v. Trokadero) 2011-04-09 - still alive DCM (diagnose since 09/2014
Xenos del Nasi 19.12.2008 (Ramon Betelges-Gloria del Nasi) ,diagnosed by ultrasound since 06/2013

Is the win worth the price?
Gretchen_Red is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Gretchen_Red For This Useful Post:
Ahavah (06-20-2016), Doberman4Life (06-16-2016), triciakoontz (06-16-2016)
post #22 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 12:00 PM
Alpha
 
iceman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,738
Location: Cyprus
Dogs Name: Kaiser/Nika/Ben/Chiko
Titles: FCI_INTCh/GChCY/ChMD/ ChBG/ChMNE/ChSM/ChAZE/ CHGE/ChTW/BH/IPO1
Dogs Age: 3-5-2008/4-14-2010/03-06-2014
Gallery Pics: 62
Visit iceman's Gallery
Thanks: 1,357
Thanked 5,005 Times in 1,179 Posts
Images: 62
                     
Click here to find out how iceman became a supporter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
Is the win worth the price?
You have no right to crucify couple of breeders because of the breeds cardio problem..

The problem has been there all along, they did not create it..

There is no dobermann on the face of the earth 100% safe from DCM!!

Anyone that says or believes the opposite is a lier

No matter how many so called "health tests" you do, it will only be used to fool puppy buyers into believing they are buying a healthy puppy..which is NOT true!!

iceman is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to iceman For This Useful Post:
alan j. (06-16-2016), Darkevs (06-17-2016), dobebug (06-17-2016), Pwca (06-26-2016), SieYa (06-16-2016)
post #23 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 12:21 PM
Super Moderator
 
MeadowCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,463
Location: MN
Dogs Name: Richter; Sypha; RIP Shanoa & Simon
Titles: Richter: CAA, L1V, NW1, L1I, L1E, ACT1, WAC
Dogs Age: d.o.b. 7/13/2012; d.o.b. 12/6/2015
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit MeadowCat's Gallery
Thanks: 41,798
Thanked 47,328 Times in 13,016 Posts
Images: 1
                     
Click here to find out how MeadowCat became a supporter
Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman View Post
Yet another thread where "respectable" American breeders are being glorified praising the NA dobermann while (some) European breeders are being ignorantly demonized at the same time the "Euro" dogs critisized because of their different look to the NA dobermann..

There are poor breeders everywhere breeding poor dogs..do not categorize them according to their geographical location..
That was certainly not my intent. Given what the OP says they want in a dog, and the fact that they are totally new to Dobermans, I think they'd be much better served trying to find an ethical breeder HERE rather than trying to import a dog, which, I think, is harder to do when you are new to the breed.

I absolutely believe there are a lot of ethical European breeders. I think it's much harder for new people in the US to figure out who they are, purely because we are over here. Additionally, the OP doesn't seem to need an important, given what they are looking for in a dog. Just my two cents. There are lots of lovely European dogs that I admire. I hope there is also respect for the nice, ethical breeders in the US from the good breeders over on your "side of the pond."


SigPic1
by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA L1V NW1 L1I L1E ACT1 WAC & Sirai's Golden Masquerade
“You cannot get through a single day without having an impact on the world around you.
What you do makes a difference, and you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make.”
― Jane Goodall
MeadowCat is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to MeadowCat For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (06-16-2016), dobebug (06-17-2016), greenkouki (06-16-2016), melbrod (06-16-2016), Rosemary (06-16-2016), ScoobyDobieDoo (06-16-2016)
post #24 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 12:24 PM
Alpha
 
Gretchen_Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,035
Location: Denver
Dogs Name: Gretchen and Maverick
Titles: CGCA, RE, RATN and Supreme bed destroyer
Dogs Age: 21 mo and 6mo.
Gallery Pics: 14
Visit Gretchen_Red's Gallery
Thanks: 6,625
Thanked 4,015 Times in 1,782 Posts
Images: 14
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman View Post
You have no right to crucify couple of breeders because of the breeds cardio problem..

The problem has been there all along, they did not create it..

There is no dobermann on the face of the earth 100% safe from DCM!!

Anyone that says or believes the opposite is a lier

No matter how many so called "health tests" you do, it will only be used to fool puppy buyers into believing they are buying a healthy puppy..which is NOT true!!
I'm not crucifying them at all, just backing up what I stated. I don't believe there are ANY lines that are the epitome of health. But there are lines that I personally choose to stay away from, both NA, SA and Europe. When researching for a puppy I even looked into some SA lines where I didn't like the health issues (although they weren't cardio). My personal belief is that I like to show my dogs, it's fun, but would I rather win over health? never. I'm not saying that's how others choose their dogs or how breeders breed their dogs, I'm just saying it was constantly in my mind when searching for a breeder and looking at the dogs lineage.
Gretchen_Red is offline  
post #25 of 44 (permalink) Old 06-16-2016, 01:00 PM
Alpha
 
iceman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,738
Location: Cyprus
Dogs Name: Kaiser/Nika/Ben/Chiko
Titles: FCI_INTCh/GChCY/ChMD/ ChBG/ChMNE/ChSM/ChAZE/ CHGE/ChTW/BH/IPO1
Dogs Age: 3-5-2008/4-14-2010/03-06-2014
Gallery Pics: 62
Visit iceman's Gallery
Thanks: 1,357
Thanked 5,005 Times in 1,179 Posts
Images: 62
                     
Click here to find out how iceman became a supporter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
I'm not crucifying them at all, just backing up what I stated. I don't believe there are ANY lines that are the epitome of health. But there are lines that I personally choose to stay away from, both NA, SA and Europe. When researching for a puppy I even looked into some SA lines where I didn't like the health issues (although they weren't cardio). My personal belief is that I like to show my dogs, it's fun, but would I rather win over health? never. I'm not saying that's how others choose their dogs or how breeders breed their dogs, I'm just saying it was constantly in my mind when searching for a breeder and looking at the dogs lineage.
If you have done (which I believe you have) DNA DCM test on your dogs, I suggest you have a look at the bottom of the results page which says..

Dogs that are positive for the test will not necessarily develop significant heart disease and die from the disease. Some dogs will develop a very mild form of the disease and will live quite comfortably, some may need treatment. Importantly, breeding decisions should be made carefully. At this time we have do not yet know what percentage of Doberman Pinscher will be positive for the mutation. However, removal of a significant number of dogs from the breeding population could be very bad for the Doberman Pinscher breed. Remember that dogs that carry this mutation also carry other important good genes that we do not want to lose from the breed.



So, if we start looking at the pedigrees and eliminating all the dogs with DCM, in no time we will destroy the breed before anything else does..

Dobermann gene pool is too small to do this!!

iceman is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to iceman For This Useful Post:
SieYa (06-16-2016)
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome