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Anyone hear ever heard of Kevlar Dobermans before?

26K views 53 replies 24 participants last post by  melbrod 
#1 ·
Hi,

I'm doing a ton of research and learning a lot about the doberman breeding community. Normally I can screen breeders pretty well but I can't really tell with this one. Does anyone have any experience with this breeder? If it's a definite no-go, does anyone have any recommendations for a breeder who's planning a litter over the next few months and has European lines?

My Site :: Available Puppies


Thank you
 
#5 ·
i posted this in your other thread. i suggest taking heed.

hi there! please send Mariann a note at Contact - Metropolitan Baltimore Doberman Pinscher Club (give her what you're looking for, the sort of household you have, etc.)

we're just north of you in Baltimore. we also have a show coming up in April, if you're off on Friday April 22.

alternatively, DARE is a fantastic rescue and they serve your area: DAR&E (DARE) Doberman Assistance Rescue & Education - Doberman Assistance Rescue & Education
 
#6 ·
what does super sized and confirmation mean? They've confirmed them to be super sized? Ugh. If you're really looking to deal with health issues super sized is def. the way to go!

I encourage you to go to a dog show and meet the breed, breeders and handlers. Personally, as someone who's new I would encourage you to stay away from European dobes. I did the same myself. There's too many greeders/used car salesmen out there AND I don't personally trust any/most of the health testing done in a lot of European countries. The only way, IMO, to get a nice European dog is to have contacts in Europe who are trustworthy. There are a few breeders here in the U.S. but they are few and far between.

I also think if you go to a show you'll see that US and Euro dobes aren't necessarily as different as you may think.

Also, reaching out to your local dpca club is a great way to meet other dobe owners and find out about litters. At least here in CO the breeders are small and don't tend to advertise and you won't find them on any website. They can also help you with posting.

Good luck! Stay here and keep asking questions and learning. DO NOT sign anything or put money down until you have our approval promise?
 
#7 · (Edited)
Okay, just to clarify it doesn't say "super" it says "superior" which doesn't have to mean "larger than usual". There's an entire page on their website that's focused on the breed standard according to AKC. I've seen the adjective "superior" used to describe puppies on multiple reputable breeder sites as well.
 
#8 ·
My main issue is that I really don't mind if the immediate parents of the pup are champion sired or not. So many "reputable" breeders are trying to sell me a companion-rated puppy at a show quality price. If you breed two champion titled dogs, you would be lucky if 2-3 of that litter are of show quality.. so why is there a flat rate more often than not?

Also, Kevlar IS weird they don't do ear crops for buyers. I sent them a single e-mail inquiry about the parents and they immediately urged me to put a deposit down because "there's a high demand". So definitely steering clear.

By the way I have contacted Mariann and she's suggested some breeders to me, thank you.
 
#12 ·
Color me underwhelmed by them. All of their dogs are from Kimbertal, which just so happens to be the largest Doberman and Rottweiler puppy mill in the country.

In the following, my responses will be in blue
My main issue is that I really don't mind if the immediate parents of the pup are champion sired or not. So many "reputable" breeders are trying to sell me a companion-rated puppy at a show quality price. If you breed two champion titled dogs, you would be lucky if 2-3 of that litter are of show quality.. so why is there a flat rate more often than not?

It costs the exact same amount to produce those pet quality pups as it does to produce show/work prospect pups. Frequently, the difference between a show/pet puppy can be so slight that only an experienced person can see it.

Also, Kevlar IS weird they don't do ear crops for buyers. I sent them a single e-mail inquiry about the parents and they immediately urged me to put a deposit down because "there's a high demand". So definitely steering clear.

Not doing ear crops, or charging extra to do them, is one of the ways a not-so-stellar breeder cuts corners. Also, the "hurry up and get yours before they're gone" used car salesman attitude plays on people's desire to not "miss out" on a "good deal".

By the way I have contacted Mariann and she's suggested some breeders to me, thank you.
Glad that you are open to advice. If you are interested in a more Euro line dog, you can also check out the UDC breeders list. UDC Breeder Directory
 
#10 · (Edited)
Please find me a rep. breeders site that says superior sized. Sorry in my mind Superior and super, when it comes to size, is the same.

Here's the Doberman standard and there's no use of the word superior. Whatever AKC has, the DPCA is where the standard is set and kept.

DPCA | The Doberman | Breed Standard

Here's a small snip it on size and gen. appearance

GENERAL APPEARANCE

The appearance is that of a dog of medium size, with a body that is square. Compactly built, muscular and powerful, for great endurance and speed. Elegant in appearance, of proud carriage, reflecting great nobility and temperament. Energetic, watchful, determined, alert, fearless, loyal and obedient.

SIZE, PROPORTION, SUBSTANCE

Height at the withers: Dogs 26 to 28 inches, ideal about 27 1/2 inches; Bitches 24 to 26 inches, ideal about 25 1/2 inches. The height, measured vertically from the ground to the highest point of the withers, equaling the length measured horizontally from the forechest to the rear projection of the upper thigh. Length of head, neck and legs in proportion to length and depth of body.
 
#13 ·
Hey Newdobie! I won't presume to tell you what to do about a new pup, not my place. But if their claims are accurate, they have a bitch they're advertising as 29.5 inches, that really is a way oversized girl!

But all that aside. All of their dogs come from Kimbertal in PA. They don't overall have the best reputation for health testing, among other things, though they have imported some beautiful males from around Eastern Europe to use in their program. For my money, I like to find a breeder who does have health test results they can show me, heart testing(cardiologists report) hips, eyes, thyroid along with the vWD testing. Additionally I'd like to deal with a breeder who actually does something with their dogs, obedience, agility, sport, conformation. But like I said, that's me! When I'm looking at spending up to 3K on a pup, I want a lot for my money!!
 
#14 ·
They don't overall have the best reputation for health testing, among other things, though they have imported some beautiful males from around Eastern Europe to use in their program.
Understatement. They import titled males with minimal health testing from various European commercial kennels, and then breed them to their untitled, untested females, ad infinitum. They breed several hundred puppies a year (one year's inspection report said about 500 puppies sold), mainly by farming out their bitches to people on a "breeding contract", where they retain ownership of the bitch until she has whelped a certain number of litters/puppies for them, then they sign her over to the people who have been raising and caring for her.
 
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#15 ·
Run far run fast.

While you may not 'want' a show dog. You do want a dog who's body parts fit together properly so the dog doesn't have major issues with joints at an early age or any age if avoidable. You want a dog with a stable temperament right? A dog you can do things with? Take places? Introduce to strangers?
a happy healthy puppy that has an easy going personality comes from happy stable parents, it comes from proper early socialization...
There is usually NO difference in pricing between show prospects and pet puppies they aren't generally evaluated until at least 8 weeks so the rearing of them is the same! Why should there be a difference?
Over sized is a gimmick to suck those lacking knowledge.
Ultimately you want a breeder breeding to preserve and better the breed not to just churn out puppies for the unsuspecting to purchase.
 
#16 · (Edited)
I'm sorry but that argument is not valid. This way of thinking is backwards.

Hypothetically speaking, a Lamborghini and a Camry cost the same to manufacture. However, the Lamborghini's worth and overall value is rated much higher than the Camry. Why would anyone in the right mind, settle for the Camry when someone else is getting the Lamborghini for the same exact price? Just because someone else promises to show off the sellers car? When you make a purchase, it comes down to the overall value of the product, not your future plans.

The same general notion applies here. If a puppy is rated to have higher conformation than another, both should be priced accordingly. Why would anyone pay the same as someone else, for something deemed "lesser". This doesn't make any logical sense.

On another note, temperament and health issues are NOT 100% avoidable just because you purchase from a show breeder. I know the first 8 weeks of a puppy's life are crucial, but I can't help but think the dog's experiences and training throughout the rest of his life might have a larger impact on it's overall temperament. I have also worked with a lot of abused and neglected dogs, and I know that a dog's disposition can be recuperated.

Oversized/warlock/king IS a gimmick. At least we can agree on that.
 
#17 ·
I'm sorry but that argument is not valid. This way of thinking is backwards.

Hypothetically speaking, a Lamborghini and a Camry cost the same to manufacture. However, the Lamborghini's worth and overall value is rated much higher than the Camry. Why would anyone in the right mind, settle for the Camry when someone else is getting the Lamborghini for the same exact price? Just because someone else promises to show off the sellers car? When you make a purchase, it comes down to the overall value of the product, not your future plans.

The same general notion applies here. If a puppy is rated to have higher conformation than another, both should be priced accordingly. Why would anyone pay the same as someone else, for something deemed "lesser". This doesn't make any logical sense.

On another note, temperament and health issues are NOT 100% avoidable just because you purchase from a show breeder. I know the first 8 weeks of a puppy's life are crucial, but I can't help but think the dog's experiences and training throughout the rest of his life might have a larger impact on it's overall temperament. I have also worked with a lot of abused and neglected dogs, and I know that a dog's disposition can be recuperated.

Oversized/warlock/king IS a gimmick. At least we can agree on that.
Um, wow.... Okay, then.

First of all, if the breeder used an outside stud (which most do), they have to pay a stud fee. They pay that whether they get one puppy or a dozen.

They pay for vet bills for the bitch, which cost the same whether she's carrying one puppy or a dozen.

Once the puppies are whelped, they have to take care of the puppies. Every single pup in the litter gets the same care, whether it's a singleton litter or a dozen pups. They get checked on and handled daily. With a bigger litter, the breeder actually puts more time into dealing with them.

When it comes time to crop the litter, the vet charges the same price for each puppy. Vaccinations cost the same for each puppy.

At around 8 to 10 weeks, the breeder makes the "final" show/working/pet determination in placing them. Every single puppy has had the same care, vetting, and early socialization, but you want them to charge less for the ones that are deemed pet quality? It's not like they're making money hand over fist by producing this litter. If anything, the best they can hope for is to break even.

And you're right, no breeder and absolutely guarantee 100% that every single puppy they produce will live a long, healthy life with no temperament issues. But they can certainly stack the odds in favor of that by selecting breeding stock that are sound of mind, testing for as many health issues as they can, and socializing the heck out of their puppies.
 
#20 · (Edited)
The reason why show puppies often don't cost more than pet puppies is like as GR stated above, more often than not they are co-owned with the breeder. In order to get a conformation championship or a working/ performance title it takes some money (which is hard to estimate how much) and a significant amount of effort in time for training, travel, conditioning, above and beyond what is typically done for a companion/ pet puppy. So the price the breeder charges is typically related to the costs of producing a health tested litter, often times at a loss if you were into account the true costs of attaining titles. The buyer of a show puppy signs a contract that typically commits to an effort towards achieving a title, hence in the long run they are indeed spending the Lamborghini money vs the Camry money, just not paying it up front.

And believe me when I say that your mouth would drop if you heard how much people spend once you are in the upper echelon of dog showing. The purchase price of the puppy is a fairly insignificant expense to those that are really into this as a hobby.
 
#22 ·
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And believe me when I say that your mouth would drop if you heard how much people spend once you are in the upper echelon of dog showing. The purchase price of the puppy is a fairly insignificant expense to those that are really into this as a hobby.
Oh, you mean like in this article? ;) Financial Backers for Campaigning Show Dogs

""We once figured out that between entries, handling fees and travel expenses, the cost of campaigning a top dog for a year is higher than the average person's annual salary," says Desiree Livingston."

"How much does a backer typically spend on a show dog? It depends. Dina Manship Planche, who sponsors several dogs shown by Lois DeMers, tries to keep it modest with "less than $5,000 a month." This figure doesn't sound ridiculously high until she adds, "per dog." She's aiming for a dog in each group. "It's not for the faint of checkbook!" she says."
 
#24 · (Edited)
Getting any title isn't exactly "cheap". A rough estimate for Ilka's RN, RA, RE, BN, and CA titles is $385. That's just for the times she Qed. Add in the 2 NQs in BN, the four times she was in RA and didn't Q, the two times she NQed in RE, and the dozen times in the ring going for her CD (of which she only has two legs), it's another $550. That is just entry fees. Most of our trials were out of town (heck, out of the state, even). I had to pay for a motel, gas, and food for those trials, and even staying at Motel 6, that's another $200 to $300 expense.

It's very discouraging to make a five hour+ one way drive and spend the night in a motel, only to have one event canceled and your dog NQ in the only other class she's entered in, and have to make a 5 hour+ drive back home with nothing to show for it beyond the gourmet dog treats and cute car magnets you purchased while you were there.
 
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#27 ·
And you aren't even taking into account the cost and time getting a dog ready for competition. Paying for classes, workshops, the time spent practicing that technically speaking you could be spending making money instead of spending money. It's a labor of love towards your dog and it is very satisfying. People that aren't involved underestimate how much effort it is.

On conformation costs, not all dogs have to be campaigned to be specials and or compete at that level. People should understand the costs before becoming involved but realize that spending 50-100 k is not a requirement or even feasible for many of us that show in conformation.
 
#29 ·
I'm not sure about Lamborghini, but I know for a fact it can take 6-9mo for a Rolls Royce to be manufactured. The cost of materials, engineering etc is absolutely more in a luxury car. Heck, just the technology and electronics can cost a significant amount more to manufacture.

Terrible comparison, though I love the analogies Ixi7311 used!
 
#31 ·
I just found this thread as i am not on social media for this reason. If you are going to spout your "options" all over the World Wide Web make sure you have the facts. Especially those that are touting themselves to be know it alls. We are all entitled to our opinions but opinions are exactly that, not facts. Everything that I have read about Kevlar Dobermans is completely false. But what do I know, they are just my dogs....all of you must know my dogs and business better then I. And to the person asking for advice, social media is the last place to be looking. And if said person has questions about us or our dogs its best to talk directly to us as we will tell you the facts; since we know our dogs best-pedigrees, health testing, temperaments, Etc. -best wishes to you all.
 
#32 ·
Excellent! Start a new thread and introduce your dogs.... Probably jumping in with your breeding dogs' heritage and then moving on to their current titles. Including, obviously, the health testing that you regularly do. Pics (especially the ones standing at a podium and receiving their awards) would be great!

Full registered names, so that they can be researched on a site like dobequest.org, would also be really helpful.

Of course, you cannot advertise on this forum. Yet, it may give you some credibility.

BTW... I have perused your site and I am definitely not holding my breath for you to respond to my "challenge".

John
Portland OR
 
#36 ·
Sorry, just wanted to comment because I found your dog's pedigrees.

Maxim Di altobello
Baron Nike Renewal
Fedor Del Nazi

All three of these dogs are KNOWN to have DCM in their lines. I would seriously think about not breeding the dog who is doubled up with 2 of these dogs in their pedigree (there could be more than one).
 
#48 ·
You are spot on but it's actually much worse than you even lead on. I know cause my pup was RIO progeny and he died from DCM shy of his 4th bday. RIO didn't make 6. Maxim died at 6. On top of that this guy is breeding to Chagall Best of Milanlo progeny, whose & I quote the owner "heart exploded" also at 6. DCM is everywhere but what Kevlar issuing is disgusting. The odds are astronomicaly high that those dogs won't live last 6. If you don't believe me just look up down RIO's pedigree. Most are dead shy of 7. They claim RIO died of "respiratory" and Maxim of "poisoning". If you believe that, well Kevlars got a dog to sell you.
 
#37 ·
As a newbie (so I may be totally wrong), it seems to me that most "kennels" or breeders with some kind of tough guy name- Kevlar, Maximus, Caliber, etc... tend to just be greeders.

Sweeping generalization? Maybe. But in my experience, when someone tells me they are looking at a puppy from "using a dog as a penis substitute" kennel... I roll my eyes.

If you're a reputable breeder and I just offended you- sorry!
 
#39 ·
I RECOMMEND NOT USING KEVLAR DOBERMANS. My opinion is harsh, but, if anyone is interested, I have the entire email exchange and pics to back up every claim I am making. I made a horrible $3000+ mistake and want to help others avoid falling into the same trap. If you are looking for a Doberman take the advice of the people here. I wish I had done a better job educating myself.

I recently purchased a puppy from Kevlar and picked her up at 8 weeks of age. The adult dogs and some pups were kept in outdoor fenced pens with dog houses. It was 92 degrees the day we saw them and they were filthy. It was awful. That was the start. We quickly learned the puppies had health issues Kevlar never disclosed to us prior to our driving several hours to pick up our pup - even though she knew we were traveling a long distance.

Once we got there Debbie, Kevlar's human, told us that the puppy had sunburn on her ears because they left her outside in her pen too long. The poor girls ears were severely blistered and scabbed.

The pups front legs were also bowed with toes pointing outward. Again Kevlar did not tell us before we traveled all that way. Debbie/Kevlar told us the pups were "knuckling over" because they grow so fast and that it happens to every large breed dog and it will go away if I just feed her the right food and exercise her. She told us that they fed her a high protein diet that caused her to grow too fast and they were now feeding her adult food to try to slow the growth. I have had dobermans for 20 years and never heard of this, but took her word for it. I am embarrassed to admit such a horrible mistake.

It was also at this time we learned the pup had coccidia at 4 weeks and had been taken away from her mother, but Kevlar/Debbie said nothing about a follow up test to show the pup was clear. A big deal because she knew we had another dog in the home. Yes I quarantine anyway, but would have asked for a negative test before driving all that way.

Needless to say after seeing my vet I learned a lot. My pups conditon is not knuckling over (which is apparently not common) but rather structural and will not go away if I just feed her the right food. The condition may get better, but she will have to be watched closely, with regular vet visits, and there is still a possibility of lameness in the future.

The pup also had an untreated ear infection. My vet was not convinced the lesions were sunburn, she indicated they could have come from aggressive taping. But Kevlar insists it is sunburn - as if that is better. The ear infection in combination with the horrible erosions on the ear made for a pup in a lot of pain.

I understand minor health issues are common in puppies. A yeast infection, or coccidia are not horrible. Leaving a tiny pup who just had her ears cropped out in the sun so long she gets third degree burns is. It shows, in my opinion, the utter disregard the breeder has for the welfare of her dogs. Not disclosing a deformity in the legs before a buyer travels to pick up the dog shows, in my opinion, how untrustworthy Kevlar is. It is clear to me that Kevlar was more concerned with selling pups than with the pups themselves. Kevlar does not dispute that they didn't disclose the information. They admit the sunburn. They admit knuckling over, but dispute my vets opinion - not with another vet opinion, but rather a google article and Debbie's own opinion. I have the emails if anyone wants to see them.

We of course paid for and took the pup home. I am embarrassed again, but believed Kevlar. She offered to take the pup back - if I drive another 5.5 hours to drop her off. I asked for $1000 refund to cover current and future vet bills. She declined. My heart won't let me send this sweet girl back to those conditions so I am keeping the puppy and will attempt to nurse her back to health. I will also do my best to educate every potential Doberman owner I can find about my experience so they do not make the same mistake I did.
 
#40 ·
I brought my girl from Poland a few weeks ago and I believe there is still one boy and one girl left. I'm Polish so it was easy for me to screen the breeder, visit her while on vacation and verify both parents were tested/came from excellent bloodlines.
Dogs are this breeder's passion and she treats hers (all 4 of them) like her own kids :) Always a good sign. All 4 are show dogs with great accomplishments:

here are the parents:

Puppies » Rosser Reeves » Oscar z Padoku x Wiwa z Padoku » Mating | Dobermann Review

Happy to put you in touch with her. Just prepare for extensive screening - she turned down a couple from Finland who reserved the male weeks ahead of time because "they didn't ask about the dog often enough" ;-) I'm also not 100% sure they are available.
happy to send you pics of my girl too
 
#43 ·
Even if this breeder have a good reputation it's better to adopt from the shelter or rescue than buying from any breeders out there.
I cannot agree with you. Different households have different needs, and what works best for you won't necessarily work best for me.

Support rescue, absolutely. Support rescue exclusively, no thank you.
 
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