Anyone hear ever heard of Kevlar Dobermans before? - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
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post #1 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-08-2016, 01:32 PM Thread Starter
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Anyone hear ever heard of Kevlar Dobermans before?

Hi,

I'm doing a ton of research and learning a lot about the doberman breeding community. Normally I can screen breeders pretty well but I can't really tell with this one. Does anyone have any experience with this breeder? If it's a definite no-go, does anyone have any recommendations for a breeder who's planning a litter over the next few months and has European lines?

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post #2 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-08-2016, 01:34 PM
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I didn't even need to explore beyond "superior size" to say NO

Just another euro greeder touting the greatness that isn't oversized dogs.

Where are you located? Have you checked the UDC breeder directory?

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post #3 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-08-2016, 01:43 PM
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UDC Breeder Directory

Not sure who all may have puppies, but Kansa has/had a litter due soon, Eclipse has a litter coming this spring
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post #4 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-08-2016, 02:00 PM Thread Starter
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I'm in northern VA. Looking for a breeder who's hopefully within a day's drive to help with posting ears. I am also not looking to purchase until mid-May.
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post #5 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-08-2016, 02:08 PM
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i posted this in your other thread. i suggest taking heed.

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Originally Posted by falnfenix View Post
hi there! please send Mariann a note at Contact - Metropolitan Baltimore Doberman Pinscher Club (give her what you're looking for, the sort of household you have, etc.)

we're just north of you in Baltimore. we also have a show coming up in April, if you're off on Friday April 22.

alternatively, DARE is a fantastic rescue and they serve your area: DAR&E (DARE) Doberman Assistance Rescue & Education - Doberman Assistance Rescue & Education

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post #6 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-08-2016, 02:16 PM
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what does super sized and confirmation mean? They've confirmed them to be super sized? Ugh. If you're really looking to deal with health issues super sized is def. the way to go!

I encourage you to go to a dog show and meet the breed, breeders and handlers. Personally, as someone who's new I would encourage you to stay away from European dobes. I did the same myself. There's too many greeders/used car salesmen out there AND I don't personally trust any/most of the health testing done in a lot of European countries. The only way, IMO, to get a nice European dog is to have contacts in Europe who are trustworthy. There are a few breeders here in the U.S. but they are few and far between.

I also think if you go to a show you'll see that US and Euro dobes aren't necessarily as different as you may think.

Also, reaching out to your local dpca club is a great way to meet other dobe owners and find out about litters. At least here in CO the breeders are small and don't tend to advertise and you won't find them on any website. They can also help you with posting.

Good luck! Stay here and keep asking questions and learning. DO NOT sign anything or put money down until you have our approval promise?
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post #7 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-08-2016, 02:25 PM Thread Starter
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Okay, just to clarify it doesn't say "super" it says "superior" which doesn't have to mean "larger than usual". There's an entire page on their website that's focused on the breed standard according to AKC. I've seen the adjective "superior" used to describe puppies on multiple reputable breeder sites as well.

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post #8 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-08-2016, 02:30 PM Thread Starter
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My main issue is that I really don't mind if the immediate parents of the pup are champion sired or not. So many "reputable" breeders are trying to sell me a companion-rated puppy at a show quality price. If you breed two champion titled dogs, you would be lucky if 2-3 of that litter are of show quality.. so why is there a flat rate more often than not?

Also, Kevlar IS weird they don't do ear crops for buyers. I sent them a single e-mail inquiry about the parents and they immediately urged me to put a deposit down because "there's a high demand". So definitely steering clear.

By the way I have contacted Mariann and she's suggested some breeders to me, thank you.
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post #9 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-08-2016, 02:30 PM
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I am... underwhelmed by that sire.

Superior size is something they probably got from Kimbertal as well as how they are placing the puppies. Also, DAMN, 3500?! That is nuts for a puppy from UNTITLED and UNHEALTH tested parents. Keep looking. You will find something better.


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post #10 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-08-2016, 02:31 PM
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Please find me a rep. breeders site that says superior sized. Sorry in my mind Superior and super, when it comes to size, is the same.

Here's the Doberman standard and there's no use of the word superior. Whatever AKC has, the DPCA is where the standard is set and kept.

DPCA | The Doberman | Breed Standard

Here's a small snip it on size and gen. appearance

GENERAL APPEARANCE

The appearance is that of a dog of medium size, with a body that is square. Compactly built, muscular and powerful, for great endurance and speed. Elegant in appearance, of proud carriage, reflecting great nobility and temperament. Energetic, watchful, determined, alert, fearless, loyal and obedient.

SIZE, PROPORTION, SUBSTANCE

Height at the withers: Dogs 26 to 28 inches, ideal about 27 1/2 inches; Bitches 24 to 26 inches, ideal about 25 1/2 inches. The height, measured vertically from the ground to the highest point of the withers, equaling the length measured horizontally from the forechest to the rear projection of the upper thigh. Length of head, neck and legs in proportion to length and depth of body.

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post #11 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-08-2016, 02:36 PM
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Swift Run just had a litter. Contact her.


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post #12 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-08-2016, 02:58 PM
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Color me underwhelmed by them. All of their dogs are from Kimbertal, which just so happens to be the largest Doberman and Rottweiler puppy mill in the country.

In the following, my responses will be in blue
Quote:
Originally Posted by newdobie View Post
My main issue is that I really don't mind if the immediate parents of the pup are champion sired or not. So many "reputable" breeders are trying to sell me a companion-rated puppy at a show quality price. If you breed two champion titled dogs, you would be lucky if 2-3 of that litter are of show quality.. so why is there a flat rate more often than not?

It costs the exact same amount to produce those pet quality pups as it does to produce show/work prospect pups. Frequently, the difference between a show/pet puppy can be so slight that only an experienced person can see it.

Also, Kevlar IS weird they don't do ear crops for buyers. I sent them a single e-mail inquiry about the parents and they immediately urged me to put a deposit down because "there's a high demand". So definitely steering clear.

Not doing ear crops, or charging extra to do them, is one of the ways a not-so-stellar breeder cuts corners. Also, the "hurry up and get yours before they're gone" used car salesman attitude plays on people's desire to not "miss out" on a "good deal".

By the way I have contacted Mariann and she's suggested some breeders to me, thank you.
Glad that you are open to advice. If you are interested in a more Euro line dog, you can also check out the UDC breeders list. UDC Breeder Directory


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post #13 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-08-2016, 03:18 PM
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Hey Newdobie! I won't presume to tell you what to do about a new pup, not my place. But if their claims are accurate, they have a bitch they're advertising as 29.5 inches, that really is a way oversized girl!

But all that aside. All of their dogs come from Kimbertal in PA. They don't overall have the best reputation for health testing, among other things, though they have imported some beautiful males from around Eastern Europe to use in their program. For my money, I like to find a breeder who does have health test results they can show me, heart testing(cardiologists report) hips, eyes, thyroid along with the vWD testing. Additionally I'd like to deal with a breeder who actually does something with their dogs, obedience, agility, sport, conformation. But like I said, that's me! When I'm looking at spending up to 3K on a pup, I want a lot for my money!!
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post #14 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-08-2016, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windamyr View Post
They don't overall have the best reputation for health testing, among other things, though they have imported some beautiful males from around Eastern Europe to use in their program.
Understatement. They import titled males with minimal health testing from various European commercial kennels, and then breed them to their untitled, untested females, ad infinitum. They breed several hundred puppies a year (one year's inspection report said about 500 puppies sold), mainly by farming out their bitches to people on a "breeding contract", where they retain ownership of the bitch until she has whelped a certain number of litters/puppies for them, then they sign her over to the people who have been raising and caring for her.


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post #15 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-08-2016, 04:18 PM
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Run far run fast.

While you may not 'want' a show dog. You do want a dog who's body parts fit together properly so the dog doesn't have major issues with joints at an early age or any age if avoidable. You want a dog with a stable temperament right? A dog you can do things with? Take places? Introduce to strangers?
a happy healthy puppy that has an easy going personality comes from happy stable parents, it comes from proper early socialization...
There is usually NO difference in pricing between show prospects and pet puppies they aren't generally evaluated until at least 8 weeks so the rearing of them is the same! Why should there be a difference?
Over sized is a gimmick to suck those lacking knowledge.
Ultimately you want a breeder breeding to preserve and better the breed not to just churn out puppies for the unsuspecting to purchase.


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post #16 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-10-2016, 09:38 AM Thread Starter
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I'm sorry but that argument is not valid. This way of thinking is backwards.

Hypothetically speaking, a Lamborghini and a Camry cost the same to manufacture. However, the Lamborghini's worth and overall value is rated much higher than the Camry. Why would anyone in the right mind, settle for the Camry when someone else is getting the Lamborghini for the same exact price? Just because someone else promises to show off the sellers car? When you make a purchase, it comes down to the overall value of the product, not your future plans.

The same general notion applies here. If a puppy is rated to have higher conformation than another, both should be priced accordingly. Why would anyone pay the same as someone else, for something deemed "lesser". This doesn't make any logical sense.

On another note, temperament and health issues are NOT 100% avoidable just because you purchase from a show breeder. I know the first 8 weeks of a puppy's life are crucial, but I can't help but think the dog's experiences and training throughout the rest of his life might have a larger impact on it's overall temperament. I have also worked with a lot of abused and neglected dogs, and I know that a dog's disposition can be recuperated.

Oversized/warlock/king IS a gimmick. At least we can agree on that.

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post #17 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-10-2016, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newdobie View Post
I'm sorry but that argument is not valid. This way of thinking is backwards.

Hypothetically speaking, a Lamborghini and a Camry cost the same to manufacture. However, the Lamborghini's worth and overall value is rated much higher than the Camry. Why would anyone in the right mind, settle for the Camry when someone else is getting the Lamborghini for the same exact price? Just because someone else promises to show off the sellers car? When you make a purchase, it comes down to the overall value of the product, not your future plans.

The same general notion applies here. If a puppy is rated to have higher conformation than another, both should be priced accordingly. Why would anyone pay the same as someone else, for something deemed "lesser". This doesn't make any logical sense.

On another note, temperament and health issues are NOT 100% avoidable just because you purchase from a show breeder. I know the first 8 weeks of a puppy's life are crucial, but I can't help but think the dog's experiences and training throughout the rest of his life might have a larger impact on it's overall temperament. I have also worked with a lot of abused and neglected dogs, and I know that a dog's disposition can be recuperated.

Oversized/warlock/king IS a gimmick. At least we can agree on that.
Um, wow.... Okay, then.

First of all, if the breeder used an outside stud (which most do), they have to pay a stud fee. They pay that whether they get one puppy or a dozen.

They pay for vet bills for the bitch, which cost the same whether she's carrying one puppy or a dozen.

Once the puppies are whelped, they have to take care of the puppies. Every single pup in the litter gets the same care, whether it's a singleton litter or a dozen pups. They get checked on and handled daily. With a bigger litter, the breeder actually puts more time into dealing with them.

When it comes time to crop the litter, the vet charges the same price for each puppy. Vaccinations cost the same for each puppy.

At around 8 to 10 weeks, the breeder makes the "final" show/working/pet determination in placing them. Every single puppy has had the same care, vetting, and early socialization, but you want them to charge less for the ones that are deemed pet quality? It's not like they're making money hand over fist by producing this litter. If anything, the best they can hope for is to break even.

And you're right, no breeder and absolutely guarantee 100% that every single puppy they produce will live a long, healthy life with no temperament issues. But they can certainly stack the odds in favor of that by selecting breeding stock that are sound of mind, testing for as many health issues as they can, and socializing the heck out of their puppies.


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post #18 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-10-2016, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newdobie View Post
I know the first 8 weeks of a puppy's life are crucial, but I can't help but think the dog's experiences and training throughout the rest of his life might have a larger impact on it's overall temperament. I have also worked with a lot of abused and neglected dogs, and I know that a dog's disposition can be recuperated.
You have to have a foundation there in order to help/heal temperament. That foundation is genetics and early stimulation/experiences. If they're lacking, you can't put in what was originally left out.

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post #19 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-10-2016, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newdobie View Post
I'm sorry but that argument is not valid. This way of thinking is backwards.

Hypothetically speaking, a Lamborghini and a Camry cost the same to manufacture. However, the Lamborghini's worth and overall value is rated much higher than the Camry. Why would anyone in the right mind, settle for the Camry when someone else is getting the Lamborghini for the same exact price? Just because someone else promises to show off the sellers car? When you make a purchase, it comes down to the overall value of the product, not your future plans.

The same general notion applies here. If a puppy is rated to have higher conformation than another, both should be priced accordingly. Why would anyone pay the same as someone else, for something deemed "lesser". This doesn't make any logical sense.

On another note, temperament and health issues are NOT 100% avoidable just because you purchase from a show breeder. I know the first 8 weeks of a puppy's life are crucial, but I can't help but think the dog's experiences and training throughout the rest of his life might have a larger impact on it's overall temperament. I have also worked with a lot of abused and neglected dogs, and I know that a dog's disposition can be recuperated.

Oversized/warlock/king IS a gimmick. At least we can agree on that.
When a show puppy is sold it's coowned and there are usually contracts to be able to use the male as a stud for free to the breeder (that's a huge cost savings if they choose to go that route) and puppies from a bred bitch or they can breed the bitch.

It's like if I had 2 cows and you planned on slaughtering yours and another person planned and making their's a dairy cow and breeding it and give me milk. Why wouldn't I give them the nicer cow if I benefit from it in the long run and the breed benefits from it as well? And why would I charge them more? It makes them less likely to purchase and it didn't cost me any more to raise the puppies.

Also, at an early stage they TRY to grade the puppies but there's never a guarantee. My bitch was graded as a pet and those were my plans, upon having her looked at by 2 judges when she was 10mo. old they told me I should take her in the ring. I did have to pay more to the breeder to get her registration lifted but I also am a sole owner which I did to cut ties with a breeder I deemed not up to my same moral standards of breeding.
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post #20 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-10-2016, 11:02 AM
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The reason why show puppies often don't cost more than pet puppies is like as GR stated above, more often than not they are co-owned with the breeder. In order to get a conformation championship or a working/ performance title it takes some money (which is hard to estimate how much) and a significant amount of effort in time for training, travel, conditioning, above and beyond what is typically done for a companion/ pet puppy. So the price the breeder charges is typically related to the costs of producing a health tested litter, often times at a loss if you were into account the true costs of attaining titles. The buyer of a show puppy signs a contract that typically commits to an effort towards achieving a title, hence in the long run they are indeed spending the Lamborghini money vs the Camry money, just not paying it up front.

And believe me when I say that your mouth would drop if you heard how much people spend once you are in the upper echelon of dog showing. The purchase price of the puppy is a fairly insignificant expense to those that are really into this as a hobby.

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post #21 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-10-2016, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_Red View Post
When a show puppy is sold it's coowned and there are usually contracts to be able to use the male as a stud for free to the breeder (that's a huge cost savings if they choose to go that route) and puppies from a bred bitch or they can breed the bitch.
CAN be a huge cost savings. But, in theory, could also cost a lot more.
I've got breed back clauses on two of my males. I've also retained the rights to have them collected and stored at my cost. However, considering I own sisters from each of their litters who the heck am I going to use them on?! It could be a while before I could breed back to those males. People with larger breeding operations where several bitches of various pedigrees are kept could probably benefit from this more. But for most of us, it's going to be awhile before I could even use those boys.

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post #22 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-10-2016, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Dobe_Mom View Post
---
And believe me when I say that your mouth would drop if you heard how much people spend once you are in the upper echelon of dog showing. The purchase price of the puppy is a fairly insignificant expense to those that are really into this as a hobby.
Oh, you mean like in this article? Financial Backers for Campaigning Show Dogs

""We once figured out that between entries, handling fees and travel expenses, the cost of campaigning a top dog for a year is higher than the average person's annual salary," says Desiree Livingston."

"How much does a backer typically spend on a show dog? It depends. Dina Manship Planche, who sponsors several dogs shown by Lois DeMers, tries to keep it modest with "less than $5,000 a month." This figure doesn't sound ridiculously high until she adds, "per dog." She's aiming for a dog in each group. "It's not for the faint of checkbook!" she says."


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post #23 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-10-2016, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Dobiewankanobi View Post
CAN be a huge cost savings. But, in theory, could also cost a lot more.
I've got breed back clauses on two of my males. I've also retained the rights to have them collected and stored at my cost. However, considering I own sisters from each of their litters who the heck am I going to use them on?! It could be a while before I could breed back to those males. People with larger breeding operations where several bitches of various pedigrees are kept could probably benefit from this more. But for most of us, it's going to be awhile before I could even use those boys.
One breeder I looked into got a % of stud fees if they found the bitch. Just a thought. I believe it was 10% of the fees but don't quote me.
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post #24 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-10-2016, 11:38 AM
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Getting any title isn't exactly "cheap". A rough estimate for Ilka's RN, RA, RE, BN, and CA titles is $385. That's just for the times she Qed. Add in the 2 NQs in BN, the four times she was in RA and didn't Q, the two times she NQed in RE, and the dozen times in the ring going for her CD (of which she only has two legs), it's another $550. That is just entry fees. Most of our trials were out of town (heck, out of the state, even). I had to pay for a motel, gas, and food for those trials, and even staying at Motel 6, that's another $200 to $300 expense.

It's very discouraging to make a five hour+ one way drive and spend the night in a motel, only to have one event canceled and your dog NQ in the only other class she's entered in, and have to make a 5 hour+ drive back home with nothing to show for it beyond the gourmet dog treats and cute car magnets you purchased while you were there.


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post #25 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-10-2016, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
Oh, you mean like in this article? Financial Backers for Campaigning Show Dogs

""We once figured out that between entries, handling fees and travel expenses, the cost of campaigning a top dog for a year is higher than the average person's annual salary," says Desiree Livingston."

"How much does a backer typically spend on a show dog? It depends. Dina Manship Planche, who sponsors several dogs shown by Lois DeMers, tries to keep it modest with "less than $5,000 a month." This figure doesn't sound ridiculously high until she adds, "per dog." She's aiming for a dog in each group. "It's not for the faint of checkbook!" she says."
I've heard campaigning can cost anywhere from $50,000-$100,000 per dog.
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