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Old 08-15-2008, 05:09 AM   #1 (permalink)
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white spot on chest

Hello, I had posted not long ago in the forum about Dobermans with white spots on their chests. Have received some input , so I want to thank everyone for their replys.

But I want to throw it out to the breeders on here what your opinion is of the white spot and how often does it appear in litters. Also where does it originate from?


thank you!
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Old 08-15-2008, 06:22 AM   #2 (permalink)
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It probley comes from the white factor somewhere far back in the pedigree... They are allowed 1 8th of an inch of white on their chest.. but any more then that and its a DQ for this breed.. and they could never be shown... Thats what sometimes makes a othewise good dog a pet.
hope this helps?
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Old 08-15-2008, 07:50 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feverone View Post
It probley comes from the white factor somewhere far back in the pedigree... They are allowed 1 8th of an inch of white on their chest.. but any more then that and its a DQ for this breed.. and they could never be shown... Thats what sometimes makes a othewise good dog a pet.
hope this helps?
It was my understanding that the white factor is a color masking gene, and that it was pretty much a binary value (either it's there or it's not - all or nothing).

Wouldn't dogs whose physical appearance displays the white gene sequence simply be albino due to lack of pigment ? I wouldn't think that albinism would cause a white spot. Geneticists, breeders...? Help us out here...
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Old 08-15-2008, 08:14 AM   #4 (permalink)
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The white spot on the chest is believed to be a throwback to one of the foundation breeds which also had white chest spots. It has nothing to do with the albino (white factor) gene which is a masking gene.

Yes it is believed to be inherited.

The akc standard does not actually say that any white spot on the chest is a DQ although it is a fault.
American Kennel Club - Doberman Pinscher
Quote:
Color and Markings
Allowed Colors: Black, red, blue, and fawn (Isabella). Markings: Rust, sharply defined, appearing above each eye and on muzzle, throat and forechest, on all legs and feet, and below tail. White patch on chest, not exceeding square inch, permissible. Disqualifying Fault: Dogs not of an allowed color.

....
Faults
The foregoing description is that of the ideal Doberman Pinscher. Any deviation from the above described dog must be penalized to the extent of the deviation.

Disqualifications
Overshot more than 3/16 of an inch, undershot more than 1/8 of an inch. Four or more missing teeth.
Dogs not of an allowed color.

Last edited by Dobemom2b; 08-15-2008 at 08:29 AM..
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Old 08-15-2008, 08:16 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Certain lines have this, that I am aware of.
AKC and CKC Breed Standard states;
1/2" square
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Old 08-15-2008, 08:16 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Agree with Dobemom, there is genetically no way that the albino gene could cause a small white patch on the chest. Its an "all or nothing" type of thing to make it simple.

Lexx has a white zipper and apparently his grandfather had some little white hairs on his chest, so genetics must be involved in some way.
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Old 08-15-2008, 08:18 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WorkingInSTL View Post
It was my understanding that the white factor is a color masking gene, and that it was pretty much a binary value (either it's there or it's not - all or nothing).

Wouldn't dogs whose physical appearance displays the white gene sequence simply be albino due to lack of pigment ? I wouldn't think that albinism would cause a white spot. Geneticists, breeders...? Help us out here...
Well, I'm not a breeder, but I guess I'm a geneticist in training. But I agree with WorkingInSTL. I don't think the white chest mark has anything to do with the albino mutation. As far as I know, the albino mutation is all or none.

I'm guessing the white spot is an artifact from one of the breeds that went into the early Doberman Pinscher. I've seen them on Rotti X's too. The spot shows up under a certain sequence of what are likely random events that take place during meiosis, fertilization, and development.
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Old 08-15-2008, 10:23 AM   #8 (permalink)
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This is what I was looking for, from World Class Doberman Pinscher site, but I think they have since removed it.....

Quote:
Their will be times when we at WCDP feel we have an exceptional puppy, beyond our Superior World Class Levels. For instance a Blue colored or Fawn / Isabella colored puppy or the extremely rare one in a million white tiger gene. A white line of hairs on the center of the dobe's chest "The Crest Of Immortality - Champion / Warrior Spirit". The Blue & Isabella tend to be a little more common in the Doberman Pinscher world these days but still are special and will always be worth a little more. We ask 3,500.00 for any that we produce.

The Chest of Immortality - Champion / Warrior Spirit! It is said that a white tiger and a wolf 3000 years ago fought. There were no losers just champion winners, both left injured form the spectacular battle. After the battle the tiger and wolf were both considered to be champions possessing the warrior spirit in their packs. It is said from the battle blood and tears were exchanged from tiger to wolf, from wolf to tiger. This was the climatic point of the development of the white tiger gene in a dog breed. Over the years the wolf has become more and more domesticated and the wolf has been bred into many of the new dog breeds of today. That mainly being the working class. Every once in a while a rare one in a million white tiger gene will appear in a working class puppy. THIS IS A SUPER SPECIAL PUPPY. It is said that it will be able to do anything. It will have the Champion / Warrior spirit. It will be feared by all other dog breeds for they will sense the white tiger in it. It will live forever. This kind of Doberman Pinscher is extremely rare and almost price list. There have been some in Germany and Russia that have sold in the 75,000 to 90,000. Anyone who owns this superior highest level of white tiger doberman pinscher is sure to get the respect that it command. This rare one of a kind is more of an investment for the owner that will never lose its value. If the dog is professionally trained it will only increase the value of the dog. If the dog competes and undoubtedly will win that will also increase its value. It is a win, win situation with this rare one of a million kind of white tiger doberman pinscher puppy. We are ask 4,999.00 for the one we have produce. That is only two times the value of one of our Highly Superior World Class Doberman Pinschers.
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Old 08-15-2008, 10:38 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Well, let's see, on the idiot asshat test:

Multiple typos, misspellings and misused words. Check.

Dog chained to vehicle for photo op. Check.

Overweight dogs being passed off as genetically large. Check.

Promoting a high-priced mediocre quality dog food brand. Check.

Non-titled dogs being used for breeding. Check.

Promoting buying a puppy for a Christmas present. Check.

Bragging about being commercially licensed (WTF?) Check.

Accepts credit cards and has pushy sales pitch. Check.

Made up bullshit training titles. Check.

Bragging of "International Champion" bloodlines with no documentation. Check.

Bonus points for the trite BYB names on the dogs!

Yup, they are confirmed asshats.

Now, where is that heavy sceptre of mine...I feel a need for a beating upside some heads.
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Old 08-15-2008, 10:46 AM   #10 (permalink)
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OMG, these people actually post this on the internet for the entire world to read ? These paste eaters are just screaming out to be made fun of !!!
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Old 08-15-2008, 11:45 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Oh dear gawd, you did your edit after I had posted, Incredibledobe.

Uh, yeah, those people are nearly "price list," themselves.

I'm actually not sure they are paste eaters. Not sure they'd be able to get the lid off the jar successfully...
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Old 08-15-2008, 12:31 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Maybe the mechanical intricacies of a screw-top lid are a little too complex for them on an engineering level, but, let the kindergarten teacher leave the jar open in front of them and...watch out!!!
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:15 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Something about the white spot on the chest: Untill the 1930's I think it was allowed to show a dog with a white spot on his chest if the white spot wasn't bigger than an 1 German mark coin. So you don't need to be a genetic specialist to know that it is still possible to find some lines where the white spot still excist. This has nothing to do with any albino factor at all.
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:19 PM   #14 (permalink)
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"Their will be times when we at WCDP feel we have an exceptional puppy, beyond our Superior World Class Levels. For instance a Blue colored or Fawn / Isabella colored puppy or the extremely rare one in a million white tiger gene. A white line of hairs on the center of the dobe's chest "The Crest Of Immortality - Champion / Warrior Spirit". The Blue & Isabella tend to be a little more common in the Doberman Pinscher world these days but still are special and will always be worth a little more. We ask 3,500.00 for any that we produce.

The Chest of Immortality - Champion / Warrior Spirit! It is said that a white tiger and a wolf 3000 years ago fought. There were no losers just champion winners, both left injured form the spectacular battle. After the battle the tiger and wolf were both considered to be champions possessing the warrior spirit in their packs. It is said from the battle blood and tears were exchanged from tiger to wolf, from wolf to tiger. This was the climatic point of the development of the white tiger gene in a dog breed. Over the years the wolf has become more and more domesticated and the wolf has been bred into many of the new dog breeds of today. That mainly being the working class. Every once in a while a rare one in a million white tiger gene will appear in a working class puppy. THIS IS A SUPER SPECIAL PUPPY. It is said that it will be able to do anything. It will have the Champion / Warrior spirit. It will be feared by all other dog breeds for they will sense the white tiger in it. It will live forever. This kind of Doberman Pinscher is extremely rare and almost price list. There have been some in Germany and Russia that have sold in the 75,000 to 90,000. Anyone who owns this superior highest level of white tiger doberman pinscher is sure to get the respect that it command. This rare one of a kind is more of an investment for the owner that will never lose its value. If the dog is profesubtedly will win that will also increase its value. It is a win, win situation with this rare one of a million kind of white tiger doberman pinscher puppy. We are ask 4,999.00 for the one we have produce. That is only two times the value of one of our Highly Superior World Class Doberman Pinschers."


That's the most idiotic thing I've ever read....and I've read (and even said) some pretty stupid stuff in my time.
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:26 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Wow thats incredible my rescue Kelsey had the white tiger gene and I had no idea it was so special :rolleyes:

She also had wobblers though so maybe she was only part white tiger ??
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:26 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonzo View Post
Something about the white spot on the chest: Untill the 1930's I think it was allowed to show a dog with a white spot on his chest if the white spot wasn't bigger than an 1 German mark coin. So you don't need to be a genetic specialist to know that it is still possible to find some lines where the white spot still excist. This has nothing to do with any albino factor at all.
According to the AKC standard, a white spot is still permissible, and is NOT a disqualifying fault, provided it is under a certain size (I think it's 3/8" or something like that...help me out conformation crowd). I had a red male who had the "tiger gene" as these people call it (a few stray hairs forming a "line" down the center of his chest), along with a small white spot on his chest. I absolutely concur that this can and does exist, and I was pretty sure it has nothing to do with albinism.
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:30 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I think mine has the EVEN RARER Snow Leopard GENE!!!!
She has a white spot on both of her inner thighs.
and to think that i dint pay a penny for this price list dog!!!!
Off to breed my dog in hopes of making a fortune with those rare genes
Anyone know anyone with a white tiger dobe?
I figure if we double up on the feline genes we can charge double!!!


**Hope everyone is aware i am kidding***
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:33 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by WorkingInSTL View Post
According to the AKC standard, a white spot is still permissible, and is NOT a disqualifying fault, provided it is under a certain size (I think it's 3/8" or something like that...help me out conformation crowd). I had a red male who had the "tiger gene" as these people call it (a few stray hairs forming a "line" down the center of his chest), along with a small white spot on his chest. I absolutely concur that this can and does exist, and I was pretty sure it has nothing to do with albinism.
That's possible maybe for AKC standards but over here in Europe I'm sure it's not allowed but then again doesn't the AKC allow teeth faults also? So where talking 2 different standards here. BTW I've never heard of the "tiger gene" it sounds very funny to me.:poster_stupid:
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:49 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bonzo View Post
That's possible maybe for AKC standards but over here in Europe I'm sure it's not allowed but then again doesn't the AKC allow teeth faults also? So where talking 2 different standards here. BTW I've never heard of the "tiger gene" it sounds very funny to me.:poster_stupid:
Yes, there are differences in the AKC and FCI standard. Maybe the differences are the reason you wouldn't find it much in Europe (I am fairly certain the white spot is a disqualifying fault according to the FCI), but it is not uncommon to see the white spot on a lot of the dogs over here from American lines. It's certainly not on every dog, but it happens often enough that it is far from rare here in the states.
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:54 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Hm. Well...I think we should instead we should aim for albino dogs. Why have JUST a white patch when you could have an ALL albino/white dog?



Chest of immortality...
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Old 08-15-2008, 02:58 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Chest of immortality...
Well, I do have to admit that this was on my male who was an absolutely hard as nails as a protection dog, but, the fact that he died of DCM at 7 (RIP "Sam-I-Am" - I STILL miss you buddy) pretty much nullifies the whole "chest of immortality". (And, yes, it IS okay to laugh a little at the irony...)
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Old 08-15-2008, 03:00 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Hm. Well...I think we should instead we should aim for albino dogs. Why have JUST a white patch when you could have an ALL albino/white dog?



Chest of immortality...
Would that make it full white tiger?
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Old 08-15-2008, 03:11 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by WorkingInSTL View Post
Well, I do have to admit that this was on my male who was an absolutely hard as nails as a protection dog, but, the fact that he died of DCM at 7 (RIP "Sam-I-Am" - I STILL miss you buddy) pretty much nullifies the whole "chest of immortality". (And, yes, it IS okay to laugh a little at the irony...)
*trying...to...laugh*

I can't do it. I can't laugh at a dog's death no matter the circumstances.

The fact that you are pointing out this irony does make me LOL though.

*will feel guilty for saying LOL in this post for the next month*
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Old 08-15-2008, 03:25 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by juliabustard View Post
*trying...to...laugh*

I can't do it. I can't laugh at a dog's death no matter the circumstances.

The fact that you are pointing out this irony does make me LOL though.

*will feel guilty for saying LOL in this post for the next month*
Trust me, if you knew him when he was in his prime, and were able to see him when they rolled him out to me for my "last look", you would have laughed your butt off. His jackassery was extremely entertaining, and he was unapologetically "who he was" literally up until the last breath he took. Either way, he crossed over with a dignified end to his life, he gave me 150% of what he had to offer on the training field, was my buddy for 7 years off the field, and he's been gone almost 3 years now...oops, I'm straying WAYYYYYY OT here (sorry all)...in short, DON'T feel guilty, the irony really IS funny !
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Old 08-15-2008, 03:33 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Working, feel free to PM me and talk more about Sam if you would still like to talk cause I'd love to hear about your dog
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