Question for the Breeders

berkdogg · 06-23-2008, 09:41 PM

If you purchase a male Dobe puppy and he turns out to be well undersized with reference to the breed standard, would you consider replacing the puppy and allowing the owners to keep the undersized dog as well? The following two situations are possible reasons for the dog being undersized. Please address either scenario, as I don't know why my dog has stop growing for the last 6 months essentially.

Situation 1: The is indeed full grown as determined by genetics, despite more than adequate feeding.

Situation 2: There is a medical condition such as thyroid or pancreas issue that is causing his weight not to increase.

I love my dog and will not give him up. However, if in fact he is nearly 20lbs below the breed standard I would want another dog because technically he is not a Doberman if he does not fall into the weight range. This would be the equivalent of purchasing a Corvette and it being significantly slower than what it is the stated speed.

Any help here would be nice.

**Megs** · 06-23-2008, 10:12 PM

Hmm... I'm not a breeder, but I'm curious to know, how tall is he? (At the shoulder)

As far as I know, the AKC standard includes a range of height (26-28 inches at the shoulder for males), but weight is so variable even in individual dogs from time to time, so weight is not included in the standard. Therefore, it's somewhat unfair to say "he's not a Doberman" or not to breed standard based on his weight.

What is his current weight? If he's reached standard height and he's still only 50 pounds, I imagine he is quite underweight.

Have you talked to your vet about "Scenario #2" ? Have you had him tested for thyroid/pancreatic dysfunction?

Reputable breeders will generally take back their dogs (for probably almost any reason), and many have some type of "replacement policy," but it's just that... a replacement... They will give you a new puppy and find a new home for the puppy you are not happy with.

Julie W · 06-23-2008, 10:31 PM

A doberman is still a doberman even if it doesn't fall within the height specified by the standard. By your sentiment my doberman wouldn't "technically" be considered a doberman because she's over the standard height.

If you bought a pet quality puppy there not only is no recourse for not falling within the standard, IMO it's very shallow and sad to want a replacement for that reason. If you had purchased a puppy specifically for show and it doesn't meet the standard you would have something to discuss with the breeder.

Caelestis · 06-23-2008, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by berkdogg

If you purchase a male Dobe puppy and he turns out to be well undersized with reference to the breed standard, would you consider replacing the puppy and allowing the owners to keep the undersized dog as well? The following two situations are possible reasons for the dog being undersized. Please address either scenario, as I don't know why my dog has stop growing for the last 6 months essentially.

Situation 1: The is indeed full grown as determined by genetics, despite more than adequate feeding.

Situation 2: There is a medical condition such as thyroid or pancreas issue that is causing his weight not to increase.

I love my dog and will not give him up. However, if in fact he is nearly 20lbs below the breed standard I would want another dog because technically he is not a Doberman if he does not fall into the weight range. This would be the equivalent of purchasing a Corvette and it being significantly slower than what it is the stated speed.

Any help here would be nice.

Warning, brutally BLUNT reply below...

Are you god? Didn't think so. Do you have a significant "in" with mother nature? No?? Well, neither do breeders, and despite best efforts, these are not car stereos, they are living, breathing creatures and NO ONE can guarantee what they will look like as adults, we can only attempt to increase the odds through selective breeding and health testing.

A 65 lb Doberman is STILL a Doberman, depsite your ridiculous statement to the contrary, and in no way is your analogy applicable. All cars coming off the same line with the exact same parts should have the same performance power, but...and I know this may shock you... not all dogs are identical, not even siblings.

If there is a congenital or hereditary health problem with the dog you should get a refund, provided you did not buy from a BYB who does not have a health guarantee. IF you did buy from a BYB then you got what you paid for. However, I would never give you another one of my puppies if I were the breeder, I'd give you back your money and be done with you.

RedFawnRising · 06-23-2008, 10:58 PM

1. What is your pup's diet? Please discuss both the brands/type and the quantity given each day.

2. What health tests have already been done,through your vet? (Baseline bloodwork, full thyroid panel, what else?)

Further questions--What are the sizes of this pup's littermates, currently?

And, you do realize he has still a lot of filling out, muscling up, and maturing to come later, at this age, 12 mos, right?

What type of exercise/conditioning do you do with him?

Answer all that, and then the other question of the contract and type of pup you were buying, and folks will be able to better answer you.

DLS · 06-24-2008, 12:29 AM

berkdogg, your guy is only a year old, most Dobes do not fully mature until they are about 3 years old. I know you are concerned about his lack of weight, could you post a picture of him here, then we will be able to see if he is a light boned and body kinda guy or if there is something about his light weight that you should be concerned about.

Dobeman · 06-24-2008, 01:17 AM

How tall is your Doberman at the shoulder? How tall are his parents? How do you feed (free-feed?)? Is he a picky eater? Dobes are not filled out at 12 months of age. A picture would be great, too.

berkdogg · 06-24-2008, 08:09 AM

Hey Caelestis, I did by from a reputable breeder and my dog was purchased as working dog, not pet quality.

His diet consist of 1 cup of bill jacks/raw ground beef, 3 cups of proplan (puppy), 1 spoonfull of unflavored yogurt, 1/2 cup ground carrots. He will usually eat 1/2 in the morning and the other half at night.

I have not had any blood work done as of yet, I am just speculating at this time that there may be something wrong with him from the post I have read here. Fecal scans continually come back negative.

I know that I am not in control of mother nature but I figure breeders should at least be able to roughly gauge the weight and height of pups from particular breedings. Like I said I wanted a dog particularly for working, and should it turns out that he be smaller than most females, then I am definitely not happy with the purchase.

It is a good idea to determine the weight of his litter mates.

He is a little over 26" and is about maybe 65lbs (has been since 8.5 months old).

And Caelestis, if you are a Breeder please tell me the name of your operation so I can stay away from self assuming, pompous, know it all, unfair breeders, who don't stand by the dogs they sell because they don't know what the hell they are doing.

**Kratty** · 06-24-2008, 08:19 AM

Just because he has grown in a while doesn't mean he stopped growing at that age. I have seen stages with my girls, during their development, that all of a sudden "boom" we had a growth spurt. I remember Nikki at 15 months was around 55 pounds and stayed that way until she was 18 months. Then all of a sudden the boom factor kicked in and she started filling out and putting on more weight. I think it still may be too early to quantify as undersized.

gatehouse · 06-24-2008, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by berkdogg

Hey Caelestis, I did by from a reputable breeder and my dog was purchased as working dog, not pet quality.

What is his pedigree? The euro lines (from my own experience) take a lot longer to mature. My male took a good 2 and a half years and he still matured a bit after that. Look at his pedigree, is it an outcross? It would be hard for any breeder to tell you that your dog will weigh exactly when fully mature. Oh, and the males seem to take longer to mature anyway.

Did you consider that a dobe being a medium sized dog, at 26 inches he may actually be a better suited working dog than an oversized overweight dog? Is his temperment suited to the sport you are chosing?

Size doesn't matter LOL One of the schutzhund members at the local club here trains his chihuahua....

Good luck with your puppy.