Ethics of breeding (not Dobies)

**berkshire** · 06-03-2008, 11:40 PM

So one day, at the dog park, I ran into a young woman who had a 2-year-old spayed English Bulldog. To my shock and awe, that little bulldog outran half the dogs at the park (including Tucker), and played like a maniac for two straight hours. But she was far from 'standard'. Her face was too long, as were her legs. But she was healthy and athletic. In a breed that can rarely breathe adequately, and almost never procreate or deliver puppies naturally, is it wrong to deviate from standard? In so many of the brachycephalic (short-faced) breeds, the standard actually detracts from their health. What about dogs that have conformational abnormalities that result in elbow and hip problems? As a vet student, I think I would rather my client get a dog that is selected for health. In Dobies, it's not hard to do - the conformation standard encourages healthy joints and respiratory capacity, or at least doesn't select for deleterious qualities. But where should one stand when selecting for the breed standard impairs the functional capacity of a dog? At what point does the parent club recognize that changing standards and evolving conformation are actually hurting their breed?

**avalonandon** · 06-03-2008, 11:54 PM

I'm an idiot when it comes to breed genetics etc. What I am not an idiot about is suffering. When I see an animal suffering because of human selfishness and materialism, I find it impossible to support any practice leading to it. This includes animal testing as well as breed fanaticism.

bleh60 · 06-04-2008, 12:54 AM

I happen to not be a fan of bulldogs for that reason. They are so unhealthy. When it comes to heads being too big for delivery or the breathing problems or leg problems or whatever other problems this breed has.

The breed used to be so much more athletic back in the day before it became an object for human obsession.

Are you sure its not an old english or am bull mix you saw? maybe a bandog.

workingk9s · 06-04-2008, 08:05 AM

It is true that the conformation on Bulldogs (IMO) does not allow much in the way of health. Very sensitive to heat, etc... However, the original puprpose for the dog called for certain characteristics. Strong jaws, head, neck and shoulders was nessesary for the dog to do it's job. Some of those cahracteristics nessesary to do the job are issues in health these days. But to that end, if now all we are doing is breeding for companion and health I would think a lot of breeds' structures would change. So, where do we draw the line? I haven't heard of any Bulldogs that are active in work, but I know some other breeds that still do what they were bred to. This is a very interesting topic to me. Should some standards change? Maybe. I would like to hear more thoughts on the issue.

**berkshire** · 06-04-2008, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bleh60

Are you sure its not an old english or am bull mix you saw? maybe a bandog.

Oh no! It was definitely an English, to the bone. Overshot lower jaw, massive head, and low slung. She just had more nose than most, so her underbite wasn't quite as pronounced. But she could have been nothing else. The owner commented that she had specifically chosen a non-show breeder because she wanted one that didn't have such a squished face.

JavasMom · 06-04-2008, 08:15 AM

I heard somewhere - and I think it may have been during the Westminster coverage on tv - that there is a trend to breed English Bulldogs so as to change the standard where it's profile/head shape is concerned to ease the breathing issues(?) Would like to think that breeders could work with the AKC to change a standard for the benefit of a breed....?

gracieface · 06-04-2008, 08:36 AM

I recently met someone with a "victorian bulldog", and I've seen old english bulldogge, they are taller, and with a longer muzzle, the "breeders" are wanting to go back more toward the original appearance of the breed, when they could breed and deliver naturally, with less breathing issues. I know these breeds aren't recognized in Canada, but there is a movement toward that, of course they still charge the same amount, starting at $2500

DobeMomToo · 06-04-2008, 09:28 AM

One has to wonder when we will establish a "breed standard" for human beings and somehow "cull" those who do not meet the standard in some manner...

**Burns** · 06-04-2008, 09:50 AM

Working at a cat practice, I often wonder the same thing about Persians... they are bred to have completely flat, squished faces and stenotic nares so they can barely breathe, and when they do breathe, it's more of a snuffle/wheeze because they can't suck air into those tiny, squished nostrils! Plus all the dental/jaw problems they have because of the shape of the skull. It's sickening and I hate it. Poor things overbred to the point of being unhealthy, just because humans think that's what the "standard" should be. I wonder how in the world should it be considered a standard if the conformation doesn't support natural life??

LPacker79 · 06-04-2008, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burns

Working at a cat practice, I often wonder the same thing about Persians... they are bred to have completely flat, squished faces and stenotic nares so they can barely breathe, and when they do breathe, it's more of a snuffle/wheeze because they can't suck air into those tiny, squished nostrils! Plus all the dental/jaw problems they have because of the shape of the skull. It's sickening and I hate it. Poor things overbred to the point of being unhealthy, just because humans think that's what the "standard" should be. I wonder how in the world should it be considered a standard if the conformation doesn't support natural life??

Growing up we had a Persian. Someone gave him to us as partial payment for a horse. Casper had been a show cat his first two years, and as part of being a show cat he very rarely left his crate. I'm not sure if this is normal or not, but it was explained to us at the time that show Persians are kept crated because of the effects sunlight can have on their coat (again, not sure how true this is).

Poor Casper didn't know how to play, didn't know how to walk on carpet (kept getting stuck and we'd have to rescue him), and I think there was something wrong with him mentally. He would literally just sit and stare into space for long stretches of time.

Anyways, his face was perfectly flat. Not a bit of protrusion at all. It was actually very sad, as he had to be fed on a plate rather than a bowl because he had to jam his entire face into his food in order to eat it.

We learned that the flatter the face the better the cat's show potential was. How very sad.

We have an Olde English Bulldog that comes into our store periodically. He's getting older now, but in his younger days he was quite competitive in weight pulling. I can't see an English bully doing something like that.