Kimbertal 2

DLS · 06-01-2008, 10:54 AM

I am sorry the last Kimbertal post was closed. i believe that the whole thing was VERY educational for ALL parties involved in the discussion. I find every posting on every forum on DT to be educational in one way or another. Just because a conversation may become 'heated' does not mean it is pointless. Whenever people start discussing something that they are passionate about you can EXPECT things to get wild and crazy. I think this is a good thing myself, shows a keen interest in the subject. We should never think we know it all, i want to be learning more and more about this MAGNIFICANT breed till the day I die.
If we 'ignore' Kimbertal, we are just shutting our eyes to this PROBLEM and she will continue to carry on her merry way thinking she KNOWS IT ALL! The more we keep her and her unethical breeding practices up front and help make it common knowledge the more we can do to help avert people from even considering inquiring about a dog from them.

Kimbertalkls, read all the posts in reference to you and your dogs again and again. If you truely love dogs I am sure you will see that what you do is not for the love of the dogs.
ps, if you do not want to continue this discussion openly on this forum feel free to pm or email me. I would love to keep up this conversation with you and I will keep it between you and me.

**Lexus** · 06-01-2008, 12:58 PM

I do agree, and I think it's fair to leave this thread open for now, seeing how the other one was like 13 pages long and a pretty hard to follow anyway. Please as a reminder to all, to adhere to the DT Manifesto, which everyone had already been doing fabulously in the previous thread

As a note, this is a seriously hot button topic, and it IS aggravating and frustrating to be going in circles with a seemingly pointless discussion, but that in mind, it truly is educational, especially for the future members we know will come along inquiring about this such kennel. What's better then the kennel's own words that will serve to educate new members on what does and does not constitute responsible breeding??

That in mind, if this topic/member only serves to anger you to read, then please use the ignore button and do not visit this thread.

Also as a warning, if this topic gets dragged into other areas of the forum and disrupts our harmony here on Doberman Talk, it will not be tolerated. The discussion of Kimbertal is to remain here.

For any newcomers in the future or anyone that wants to read up on what has already been discussed, here is the link to the previous thread. Kimbertal

Thank you all!

**velmadobe** · 06-01-2008, 05:51 PM

Just thought everyone would like to know that Gabe was there and looked very happy. As a "show" person, I can see the structural damage that he suffered due to the starvation as a puppy........... not that it was wonderful to begin with. He did attain his full Kimbertal oversized height - I don't know how tall he is, but would guess that he is at least 30" at the withers ........this is a dog that was only 21 pounds at 7 months of age - so the argument about being big because of what they are fed SO does not hold water!! At 10 months of age, Gabe was very undersized for a male Dobe - we truly thought he would never get very big - we were wrong. He just kept growing until he reached his genetically predetermined size.........at a much later age than most Dobermans.

Saw several other Kimbertal Dobes there - including one that is in foster care right now - just turned one year old male - quite a lovely dog actually - not breed show quality, but a nice dog with obvious european breeding. He is a typical idiot male that is 100 handfuls and needs a Dobe savvy home and training. I believe he was an owner turn in..... but I won't swear to that.

**velmadobe** · 06-01-2008, 05:58 PM

I told the head of the local rescue that a person from Kimbertal was on a big forum trying to defend their practices - she asked who - and I told her. She just laughed and said "oh the things I could tell you about her". However I would never discuss those things on a public forum. Suffice it to say that they support my own opinion of Kimbertal.

dobesanddragons · 06-01-2008, 07:04 PM

Oh man, I just now got to all the long contradicting posts written by a rep of Kimbertal on this forum.

I would like to quote each one and address on the Kimbertal thread and help explain to this Kimbertal puppy mill WHY their statements are conflicting and point out the problems with their statements. I think leaving that thread stand as it is could be misleading to those who don't know any better.

But the thread was locked. So I hope the past thread was educational enough for puppy buyers to understand Kimbertal is a large scale commercial breeder and NOT the place to go to get a puppy. I don't know if it was, they try to say "the right things" but not even those are right if you know much.

Kimbertal has a lot of PR issues for a reason, just do a google search. It isn’t just here. Visit a Rottie forum. They don’t screen puppy buyers adequately, many of their dogs end up in rescue for Doberman rescue volunteers to clean up, vet, temperament test, house in foster care, and spend time screen potential adopters for a new home, as they don’t take their dogs back except in very specific limited circumstances, for instance, dog must be intact no matter the age, their health testing is lacking big time, up to date showing in anything at meaningful levels or titles on sire and dam before breeding or at any point is also lacking, etc. If you really want a guarantee that will protect you and your future puppy, look elsewhere.

I have noticed many puppy buyers look for a guarantee, and when they see anything that looks like one they think that is good enough. They don’t even read the thing. It isn’t. Read that guarantee. Read it closely. Get out your highlighter and print it off. Look for the loopholes. Have your friend in law school or your lawyer friend read it. Have as many people that will read it. Know what you are signing before you sign it. The guarantee many times will protect the seller. That is why they decided to make a “guarantee”. I know some reputable breeders that don’t have a formal guarantee written out, because they have ethics, morals, and have stood behind each one of their dogs for years and years and each dog that comes from them they feel responsible for for life and they are very serious about that obligation and commitment. These are NOT products, they are living beings.

That is why research is important, to put the odds in your favor when spending that much money and buying a puppy, you will want to look at breeding programs that do health test, temperament test, and are breeding to better the breed with titles that are meaningful and that say something collective and more objective about the breeding, the dogs themselves, and the individuals doing the breeding than my dog is a great family pet so let’s breed that dog. Those are what BYB’s do. Their personal opinion can be very subjective.

Kimbertal may not do those things such as fully health testing, temperament testing, or showing in meaningful opinions and titling but they sure do do a lot of breeding, charge a lot for their puppies (as much or more than reputable breeders that actually do health test, temperament test, and show in performance/conformation shows and also stand behind their puppies at anytime during that dogs life) and support the gimmick of oversized dogs.

They say they breed mothers that are pets. These make better pets. Many show dogs in conformation, performance, etc. are mainly pets too. Shows don’t last forever, training and trailing isn’t every single day of their life. But they are exposed to more situations, which gives you a better idea of their temperament, and many of those dogs are also health tested and spectacular family pets, very stable but also protective at appropriate times, great with kids and some are even therapy dogs as well. That is a real temperament test for a great family pet IMO.

A lot of people breed “pets”. These are called BYB’s. Only Kimbertal likes to breed pets for pets on a huge commercial scale level, making them worse than BYB’s in my humble opinion.

Kimbertal talking about ethics reminds me of Enron type ethics.

And, for the lawyer post conveniently written when Kimbertal arrived, these comments are made for educational and informational purposes only FYI. Also, I am not a breeder; I am not in “competition” with large scale commercial breeders. I am just one concerned individual who cares about the Doberman breed and thinks public education, breeding only to better the breed, and Doberman rescue is important.

**velmadobe** · 06-01-2008, 08:55 PM

How many people here besides me are getting e-mails from Ann at Kimbertal that are hinting at lawsuits?

thea2003 · 06-01-2008, 08:57 PM

Nope nothing over here

LawMan · 06-02-2008, 03:13 AM

Hello. I am new here. Caught all the posts on Kimbertal. I have owned Dobermans since 1978. My last male was from Finland and as he got older I started to research breeders in North America beginning about 4 years ago. I came across Kimbertal . I was not looking for a dog of North American lineage as they, in my opinion have been 'bred down' in size and I personally dont care for that look which was why I did not get my last dog here in North America.

I work law enforcement but my dogs are strictly pets. This was to be my 1st purchase of a pet 'unseen' so I conducted what I thought was a thorough investigation on Kimbertal speaking to the staff there on occassion throughout the years as well as people who owned dogs from Kimbertal. All I communicated with were absolutlely pleased with their pets amongst them 2 who had purchased second dogs from them after their 1st passed , one at 10 and another at 11yrs. In addition other breeders who proudly state Kimbertal lineage.

I also checked with the BBB who report a top rating for Kimbertal.

Most posts seem to make issue of this 'pet return' policy ... I can tell you now ... I am commited to my pets and would NEVER consider returning them for ANY reason... they are creatures like all others are susceptible to illness and injury and I for one would never abandon them due to either. So altho Kimbertal offers a pet return guarantee this is not an option I would EVER exercise and in my opinion would not be for ANYONE (purchaser) who REALLY loves animals !

I did see some negative comments about Kimbertal on the net but they were few and very old.....and seemed mostly to be from activist types who out-of -hand label anyone who breeds more than one litter a year at a facility as a 'puppy mill' . Surely if it were true and they were 'mass producing ' poorly bred animals at a neglectful, loveless facility by the nasty people Kimbertal are made out to be over the many years they have been in business the internet would be RIFE with negative reports . I would also imagine the authorities would have long since stepped in and shut them down. This is not the case.........

I personally believe that it is possilbe to breed greater numbers if decent care and attention is applied thru the process. People who I spoke to who have visted their facility reported nice, open people and good conditions for the animals.

I dont want to offend anyone here but a lot of the comments seem, for the most part, strictly second -hand , rumour-based opinion exclusive of direct experience with Kimbertal. Insinuating that those who have had a good experience with them are the "exception". Supporters are also quickly and readily discredited and attacked. This speaks volumes of those who do so .The tone of the thread, excluding a few, seems to me elitist and close-minded some thinly veiling an underlying hatred.

This immediately reminded me of a day when I attended a Doberman show locally and brought my big guy (110lb) Buddy with me to see his distant relatives. I remember well the looks of 'disdain' from all the 'experts' and 'show people' and even a few comments of how he was 'oversized' and his muzzle 'too square' , chest too deep, etc etc, ... he towered over all the small-headed narrow-faced dogs on show. Clearly he was frowned on by most, but not all, in attendance. Snobbery at its worst. I for one, do not subscribe to , nor could I care LESS about so-called 'breed standards' dictated or opinions put forward by so called experts from the show ring who surely seem the type who would not themselves fit in readily in other social situations.

I detect the same air on these Kimbertal posts . Every one an 'expert' . Some , it seems making issue by way of rumour, mountains out of mole hills...a lot of he-said, she-said.....definitely nothing I could consider as 'evidence' in my work .......

I did, after 4 years of speaking to the staff at Kimbertal purchase a new dog from them after both my Doberman and Standard Poodle passed on. He is checked by my vet of 16yrs regularly as they are doing his ear care for me. They give him a clean bill of health and complement both on his good nature and stature. They spoke to Kimbertal on my behalf and were impressed with their professional friendly nature.

Anne , Frank and the others have been NOTHING but nice, supportive and forthcoming. I grilled them on the little bit of negative press I read on them. They held back nothing over the 4 years I communicated with them prior to my purchase. There WAS NEVER any pressure to buy OR submit my credit card number. If they were the 'high pressure" sales people some here proport them to be they would have SURELY run out of patience with someone who did not buy for over 4 years ! Much to the contrary they spent a lot of time exchanging pleasantries and stories of our pets as only an animal LOVER would. As a matter of fact I mailed payment and they prepared my little guy and had him shipped almost simultaneous to payment. Sales pressure does not exist at Kimbertal in my experience.........

As I said I am an investigator by trade with over 25 years on the job. I am not easily duped . Kimbertal and their staff passed the test. I wonder how many of the pesimistic nay sayers here would stand up to same ?

I expect I will as others, suffer personal attack for honestly stating my experience as have others who supported Kimbertal herein. My intent is not start a war or to insult or demean anyone on this board but to simply state my interpretation of the comments I have read here about Kimbertal and their staff as OPPOSED to MY experience with them. Given the negativity I felt compelled to do so.

Trust me on this, if I have any negative experience with my new guy or Kimbertal , you all will be the FIRST to know. I somehow doubt that will become necessary.

All the best with your pets . I appreciate the consideration.

Stephano

Zombie · 06-02-2008, 03:36 AM

I hate when people say that people at dog shows are 'snooty' and they could care less about the breed adhering to the standard.

Why do we love Dobermans? Their sweet and loving disposition? Their grace and beauty? Their fierce loyalty? Indeed, I have fallen in love with the breed for all of these reasons and so much more.

And I have the people who show their dogs in the ring to thank. These people care so much about the breed and show their stock because they want so much to improve their dogs. We owe a lot to the persistence of those who spend their time and money to create a proud, beautiful, and noble breed we are all privileged to exist with.

Sure... They might have been giving you silent and deadly looks. Some of them might have been complete ass holes, but to think people are snobby because they want to make the best of the breed? Silliness. If you don't care about the ring then get a mongrel! They are just as smart, usually are healthier, and no one cares what they look like.

As for me, I'm supporting those that show to keep the dog we love consistent in every respect. At the end of the day though I hope everyone else realizes that the true pet lovers won't care what your dog looks like, as long as you give it the love and care it needs. No one is perfect and while we can improve our puppies as much as we possibly can, they won't be perfect either. And I'm perfectly 'ok' with that.

dobermandude · 06-02-2008, 04:09 AM

i just find it odd and unlikely that someone stumbles across this forum, happens on this particular thread to make their first and only post, and willing to spend that much time to write a small novel about their "positive first-hand" experience with this mass breeder...