Rauschund

Let's face it, it is more than unlikely.....our "new member" basically says he doesn't care what a doberman is supposed to look like.........that says it all to me. And the rash remarks about snotty show people.....well, as someone that tries very hard to breed dobes to the standard, I have never look down on someone with an oversized dog, but I certainly don't want to own one. I want to own what a doberman is supposed to be, not a rotty of mastiff in dobe clothing. But that is not truly the most important issue with Kimbertal, except for their ignorance about growing bigger dogs with better food.
the real issue is mass producing and standing behind what you produce. In this day and age with so many in rescue is that the way to go? NO. I know that most good breeders would cut their litters in half if they thought it would stop all the dobes in rescue, but that is a double edge sword....because places like Kimbertal would just produce more and more like a factory to keep up with demand, and a true standard doberman would slowly be phased out be huge dogs resembling a doberman. Good breeders also take their dogs back and do not add to the rescue population to begin with.......so all we can do is educate people and hope they make an intelligent, educated decision to not support the large puppy mills.
As far as the small narrow faces I resent that personally. Yes, some lines seem to carry a snipey muzzle, but that is true with oversized dogs too. I love a beautiful head on a dobe, but don't believe you have to have a dobe twice his normal size to attain one. My dogs have also been in Schutshund, tracking, agility, and obedience, so I believe their temperament is versatile and stable also. Look at Maco's Sugar Twin, what a beautiful head he had, and he is standard! So if the gentleman preferrs to own a dobamastiff, so be it, I prefer a true Doberman and always will. I am sure Kimbertal was nice and friendly...all the way to the bank, and hope down the road you never have to return your pet!
As I said before, let the buyer beware!

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CaroleAnn

www.rauschund.com

gracieface

my thoughts exactly! hmm, someone who doesn't care what the standard says, then he doesn't care about dobermans, gee 110 pounds, far from being a medium sized dog.
my biggest thing with Kimbertal was their policy of giving people a female in exchange for them whelping her pups- what is that? sure they are family raised, and look how many you can pump out then. Personally I'm a quality over quantity person every time.

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Elizabeth
Dobermans aren't my whole life, they just make it whole.

velmadobe

There are obviously A LOT of people out there with Kimbertal Dobermans that they absolutely love - Kimbertal would not stay in business since the 1960's if most of the dogs they produce didn't go to happy customers who keep coming back. The fact that they don't mind an oversized Doberman - and in fact don't even realize that they are oversized is just a testament to how many Kimbertal Dobermans there are out there.

I was a volunteer at a rescue picnic yesterday - the location was a 45 minute drive from Kimbertal. Trust me that oversized Dobermans probably accounted for about 50% of the Dobes there. Not all of those oversized Dobes were Kimbertal...........but I'll bet that if you were able to look back in the pedigrees (such as they are) of the other oversized Dobes you would find Kimbertal in more than just a few of them. The one thing I really notice about many of these dogs is how it affects their overall structure .... and then their agility. Not all Kimbertal Dobes are oversized - but I think that the "big" ones sell for more... not sure about that.

I can't tell you how often I am stopped by people when I am out in public with one or more of my Dobes and asked "are they Kimbertal?" and "they look little for a Doberman" ................ I used to get offended, now I realize that in their uneducated way, they are paying me a complement and I take the opportunity to educate people about what a Doberman is supposed to look like. My two girls are both right around 25 1/2" tall and not small boned - they don't have snipey heads either. In fact Velma has fabulous bone and is a very solid bitch - reminds me a lot of her 1/2 brother Hunter... who anyone would be hard pressed to call small with a snipey head - LOL LOL! Louise is far from small boned, but is not as overall as big as Velma. Harvard at 5 months has tons of bone and everyone who sees him thinks he will be huge - what they are seeing is the bone - I'm betting he will be very standard height wise. People around here are so unused to seeing a standard sized Doberman (or Rottie) that when they see one that fits the standard, they believe them to be small.

There is a Rottie in my neighborhood that is from Kimbertal. He was born within 2 weeks of my Velma and I have known him since he was one year old. My Velma could run circles around him 4 years ago, and now at 5 1/2 she is still acting like a puppy with boundless energy at her full adult weight of approx 70 pounds. The Rottie OTOH can barely walk and I have never seen the dog run - EVER. He weighs well in excess of 150 pounds and his family is proud of it. There used to be another male Rottie in the neighborhood that was from a good breeder - he at age 10 could run circles around the Rottie that was almost twice his size. Some people may think that he looks great - I can only see how grossly oversized he is and how it affects him. He is a nice dog - but at only age 5, he should be able to run and play.

I want people to love their dogs no matter where they came from - I want breeders to breed to the standard because it is there for a reason. I also want breeders to take responsibility for the dogs they produce beyond the day that they walk out the door. Anyone who has multiple dogs end up in shelters & rescue, and can defend their practices while rescue organizations struggle to pay the cost of rehomeing them is not a good breeder in my opinion ............. and I don't care what their kennel name is. This is 2008 - not 1968, and the world has changed..........we all have to do a little changing to keep up with it.

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Dillon's Barclay Amy CD RN WAC CGC TDInc "Velma"
CH Cha-Rish A Moment Like This RN WAC CGC "Louise"
Fitzmar's Command A Minute "Harvard" AKC major pointed

http://fitzmardobermans.freeservers.com/

thea2003

I dont know of any REPUTABLE breeder that goes on about their awesome Kimbertal lines!
And I think this "Lawman", accusing us of twisting words is a bit of a hypocrite, seems he is doing the exact same thing with our posts, n'est pas?

Dobes&Hounds

I think Lawman is just a ringer for Kimbermill.

__________________


JW Mercury's Secret Obsession OA OAJ WAC CGC HIC UDC ATT

*My Soul Mate*
1996-2007

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog & a man.
- Mark Twain

dobeguy

How have NA Dobes been bred down in size? Have you looked at both standards. EX. the Male Dobermans ideal height according to the AKC is 27 1/2inches, which translates to 68.75 cm. The ideal height for a Euro dog according to the FCI standard is between 68-72cm. So an American dobe at its proper size would still be acceptable according to the FCI standard. Kimberatal produces grossly over sized dogs, that lack proper health, temperament and conformation.

Oh yeah how many so called customers did you contact? How may puppies does Kimbertal produce yearly? Probably in the hundreds (Dobes/Rotts). I'm sure some people are very pleased with their dogs, but when you produce as many dogs as Kimbertal does, there will always be a few diamonds in the rough. If you do a simple google search, there are plenty of horror stories for anyone to read.

Heres a 1995 article about puppy mills, and Kimbertal is mentioned and discussed. Phila Inquirer article on Pennsylvania's puppy mills

Congrats for being committed to your pets, but not everyone is. It is a breeders responsibility to take back the dogs they produce should they lose their homes. Good breeders don't want their dogs to end up in shelters and PTS. However, when you produce hundreds of puppies a year, this is probably a bit difficult. The fact that Kimbertal encourages people not to spay/neuter their pets, or risk voiding their guarantee is a disgrace. They should encourage spay/neuter and not discourage, but who cares about the pet over population problem when we can make a few bucks AMIRITE?

And what do you classify people that produces hundreds of puppies per year? I don't know any good breeders who breed at "facilities."

LOL... now i know you are a PR rep. How all do all the puppy mills stay in business. Simple. There are no laws making this type of practice illegal. Producing bad dogs is NOT illegal, but is it unethical, immoral... YES. The internet is RIFE with complaints. Simply do a google search and you will find out. All that is required is for dogs to be kept in a certain size cages, and given water and food. THAT IS IT. If you abide by those rules, nothing can be done to shut you down.

Yeah like the care that caused an entire barn full of dogs and puppies to die in a fire. How many innocent creatures died? What care are you referring to? The screening process, that should prevent monsters from buying dogs. The type of monsters that bought poor Gabe. The lack of health testing, temperament testing, titles that aren't imported with their males, titles on the females etc... Oh yeah great care.


Oh yeah I am sure someone who despises shows such as yourself actually went to one. Its funny because I hear this crap form BYB's all the time. Yet at the same time they are so hypocritical that they have no problems propping up the champion bloodlines of their breeding dogs, or the bought titles on their own dogs. Let me ask you this. If you look down on shows as much as you state, than why market champion bloodlines and such...?

Thats funny because I detect a whole lotta BS from you. Thanks for providing us with evidence BTW. I always love hearing hearsay from anonyomus people.

LOL... you could have just given them your credit card and saved yourself the four years.

Remind me never to hire you... I bet you have a very satisfied clientele.

I am pretty sure any can satisfy your standards. What are they...

No health testing... check
No earned working titles, obedience, conformation... check
Parents kept kenneled... check
overpriced... check

Mighty fine standards you got there.


Trust me I don't expect you to come back and contribute to this forum. BTW this was a very poor PR attempt. You guys keep digging yourself a bigger hole.

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""Life itself is only a vision. A dream. Nothing exists, save an empty space and you. And you are but a thought."

juliabustard

LOL THE FACT THAT KIMBERTAL IS LISTED WITH THE BBB SAYS ENOUGH!!!! When I think BBB I think BUSINESSES or CORPORATIONS. In my opinion, breeding dogs should NOT be considered a BUSINESS. In my opinion it should be considered an ART TO STRIVE FOR IMPROVEMENT for not only the people who want to enjoy the LOVE of a Doberman (and not the pit falls of commercial breeding) but for the BREED and those who CARE (I stress the CARE part) that the breed only IMPROVES towards the AKC standard, and doesn't deviate from it.

I'm not saying no one can be happy with a Kimbertal dog, I'm sure there are plenty of people who love their mammoth dogs very much. And that's excellent, I'm happy for those people who LOVE their Kimbertal dogs and KEEP them forever. I'm simply saying those who care to have a Dobe AS IT WAS MEANT TO BE and don't feel the need to spend a small fortune on a mammoth dog deserve to know the truth about places like Kimbertal.

But lastly, this is what I have to say.... "breeding a superior Doberman, noteworthy for superior size" ...per direct quote from their website! Note how they themselves say BREEDING not FEEDING for "superior" size as Anne attested to in the other Kimbertal thread. That there speaks for itself.

THAT'S ALL I AM SAYING ABOUT THAT BECAUSE I THINK THIS DISCUSSION WILL GO NOWHERE SO LONG AS WE CAN'T KNOW WHO IS POSTING ON THE OTHER END.

-JB.

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dobesanddragons

Kimbertal has NA lines. Have you studied the Doberman standards and how those standards have changed over the years? Do you understand oversized dogs lead shorter lifespans? Think Chihuahua verses Great Dane in terms in longevity. Also, do you understand the reason for size in a protection dog? If not, I can go more in detail for you or do a search or read some books, may I suggest books written by Walker. Or the dpca website where you can find articles written by authorities and long term experts on Dobermans.
Even just seeing a standard Dobe running next to a grossly oversized Dobe gives you an insight as to the basic why’s of the standard for a personal protection dog. Muscular, powerful, endurance, and speed, these things are reasons for the standard, so the dog won’t break down over time in work, that is another reason.

Interesting, the second person since Kimbertal arrived to state their career right at the first of their post. And also to sign their “real name”. I also see other similarities in the posts. I could state my career and my degrees, but really it doesn’t add more value to my posts at all, as people are people. The professionals some work with might be brilliant in what they do and what they have studied years for, but there is no course given in reputable breeders, and many are clueless when it comes to clever marketing and pets.

First of all, any breeder that has “staff” as in plural is not a place where I like to get my pet. That reminds me of a big box pet store, where they hire a lot of young people to sell “products”.

You think anyone is going to give you the bad references? No, they give you the outstanding references only. You would think out of that many puppy buyers they would have a handful who could give them good references.

This is great and I am glad to hear this, but a lot of people aren’t like that, feeling an obligation and commitment to their animals for life. If they were, shelters and rescues wouldn’t be so full; breeders also play a huge part in that, as reputable breeders take their dogs back, no matter what, and rarely do any end up in rescue, where volunteers work to save lives that the “breeders” of all types don’t. Kimbertal produces a great number of puppies and doesn’t take dogs back for ANY reason; they only take back intact pets, there are other restrictions too. That really bothers me.

I don’t consider more than one litter a year a puppy mill. Hey, just an aside, do you have ANY idea how many puppies are at their “facility”? Do you have any idea the mass numbers of puppies they sell monthly? Yearly? These are where people get the term puppy mill or mass commercial producer.


Did you watch Oprah recently? I have never watched Oprah a day in my life but did on the puppy mill episode. Basically, puppy mills that are mass producing animals are alive and well and the public keeps supporting these mills with their money, it is a problem; it is not illegal in the US to mass produce animals in cages or a facility at this time. The “authorities” governing such places are not the standard of care I automatically think is appropriate for my puppy to receive before I bring puppy home. There is way more to raising a puppy right; that is why I suggested reputable breeders who pour their life into those puppies personally as the breeder and owner, take an active roll in socializing them, making puppy playgrounds, puppy temperament testing, handling them daily, tracking their progress daily, making sure they are clean and get the best food available, and are experts in the best rearing of puppies as this is more than just a job to them, it is there personal hobby, and each life is so important to them as each one represents years of hard work and dedication to the breed, it isn’t a dollar sign to be moved out and away of the facility, it is a real live being that is unique and special. And the puppies are kept inside the house a lot of the time, since they are going to be people’s pets. They are exposed to the normal sounds of a busy household, and kept clean and constantly exposed to being a part of the family and household; they are not living in some facility at any point in their lives. But, that is my personal opinion of how I like to see my puppies treated and all puppies treated produced by breeders.


I have addressed this another post, I will copy/paste some of it here
In Dobermans, showing is not simply a “beauty contest” according to the Doberman standard for a Dobe. So many people think structure doesn't matter, or think about it as an after thought. You might want to research and understand more on Doberman structure and why that is important to the Dobe, how it affects their ability to run, stamina, bite, so they don’t break down, etc. Size is important and so are angles.
Of course temperament is VERY important in a Dobe. But following your what if things : what good is a Dobe with a correct temperament if that dog has crippling HD or is so poorly built or bred they can't even do their job if they wanted? Or they are a great dog and someone competes with them but they break down at a young age and suffer injury after injury, causing them to have to be "on rest" all the time?

And health, well, that is plainly obvious why it is so important. What good is it if the dog is mentally and physically sound but dies at age 3 to cardio or cancer? I happen to believe things like conformation, mentally stability, temperament, drives, health, etc. are ALL important and ALL should be considered before breeding.

In the nicest way, I don't know you and this might not be you, but I find a lot of people that "trash" all the "show" dogs and people have not really been involved with it much at all. They use it as an excuse. And it is okay if you don't have experience there, not a lot do if you look straight up at numbers and stats. But please don't make it sound like all "show" people care about is conformation. That is not true. Temperament matters a lot, health matters a lot. And show people are a totally diverse group of people, they are far from all the same, this is mostly their hobby, and they are very varied in the types of lives they lead, from doctors, lawyers, business professionals, customer service reps, stay at home parents to dogs and/or kids, and everything in between. Most are normal nice people in my experience, that love talking dogs and enjoy showing.

I find it is mostly the "show" people that are the ones taking an active interest in the breed, doing public education, health testing their dogs, making databases of the breed health stats and z lists, putting money & time towards breed rescue, breed research to find cures and id genetic markers, putting together articles and information sites for others, stressing socialization, encouraging their puppy buyers to be active with their dogs - showing in all sports and going to dog classes, they are the ones organizing and attending WAE's, and other breed events. They are more inclined to know what a proper Dobe temperament is and consider it strongly when breeding the next generation (BYB's sometimes say they breed for temperament then come to find out they are breeding for the WRONG Dobe temperament, like a Golden in Dobe suit, which is not desirable at all!) just as they consider health. Many believe in titles on both ends, take a look at the names of the top 20 in obedience and agility. There are people out there doing it all with their pets and their breeding dogs. Working them in various venues, health testing, conformation, just having a blast with their dogs! Many of these people are nice friendly people who give freely of their time and are just enjoying the various things they can do with their dogs and love the breed a lot.

Why wouldn’t they be nice to you, a potential customer with questions? Their business is in sales, after all.


Well, I can’t imagine there was, I am sure they get calls all the time and know the best way to handle these things and when to give information and when to close to sell if they need to do so. I am sure they spend a lot of time just taking calls that don’t become a sell for awhile. CC - That is another red flag for me personally, the option to pay by credit card. To date, I have only seen that in BYB and large scale commercial facilities so that is why I would think of it as a heads up personally.


Hum…What are your tests? What are your standards? Let’s see, you called them a few times over 4 years, got a few references they hand picked for you, never visited their facility, talked to some hired staff, and don’t care much about the Dobe standard, full proper health testing, temperament testing, or showing in any venue. I don’t really know what else to say, as I don’t want to make you feel bad or be mean, but I feel there was lots more room for in depth research. But if you are happy, you are happy. It is not my intent to start a personal attack, only to point these things out to newbies since I hope public education and information has the ability to help the Doberman breed as a whole.

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Our aspirations are our possibilities -- Robert Browning

If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything -- Unknown

Dobes&Hounds

"I am pretty sure any can satisfy your standards. What are they...

No health testing... check
No earned working titles, obedience, conformation... check
Parents kept kenneled... check
overpriced... check

Mighty fine standards you got there."

ROFLMAO!! Now isn't this the truth?

__________________


JW Mercury's Secret Obsession OA OAJ WAC CGC HIC UDC ATT

*My Soul Mate*
1996-2007

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog & a man.
- Mark Twain

dobeguy

Yes. That is exactly right! Size does not equal a better protection dog. Look at the Belgian Malinois, they are much smaller than dobes in height and weight, yet they make a fantastic SchH, military, and police dog. I believe the secret service exclusively uses them as well.

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""Life itself is only a vision. A dream. Nothing exists, save an empty space and you. And you are but a thought."