American vs. European

blackwatch · 05-30-2008, 01:08 AM

I am still trying to understand the difference between American vs. Euro Dobermans. I've read the difference in standards and I've been introduced to both in person but i can't really tell the difference. Can anyone help explain the difference to me and what are the benefits of owning one vs. the other?

flak88mm · 05-30-2008, 01:16 AM

i think the euro dobes, especially from germany, have a large muscular chest (almost like pitbulls) and are bigger

**voodoolizard** · 05-30-2008, 02:14 AM

im so glad you asked cos i dont have a clue either ??

not even sure what my 2 are ??

im assuming euro as im in the uk ??

hope we get some answers !!

Bilclarie · 05-30-2008, 04:05 AM

If I remember this has been done before not sure where to look for it though sorry, but I'm sure another member will point you in the right direction.

**brumwolf** · 05-30-2008, 04:11 AM

The main difference between them is U.K. and Europe spell it it with 2 N's and the U.S.with 1 N !!!! The main thing to me is that it is a Dobe no matter where it is from,there has been to much infighting started over this subject so if you would all like to use the forum's search facility you will find out all the info required.And Voodoolizard you would be wrong to assume that Zeus or Missy were from pure Euro lines as a lot of Dobes in the U.K. owe their look to lines that were imported to this country from the U.S. by the famous Tavey kennels of Fred and Julia Curnow. (google Tavey to read up all about them).

**bagsjr** · 06-01-2008, 11:10 PM

The real flashpoint on this topic is around the idea of breeders doing more to inbreed these two different doberman types. My personal opinion is that this type of effort would benefit the entire breed in the long run. Broader genepool, etc. Especially in the area of heart health but I'm no expert. Maybe a slow change to both standards towards a common holistic standard would be effective at improving the breed, but fat chance of that happening with all of the politics of conformation today.

White Cleats · 06-06-2008, 10:33 PM

This is a very slippery topic, but I'll toss my two cents in.

The difference between European and American dogs is vast. They are now two separate breeds as it pertains to use.
To generalize, European dogs are bred to work -- as personal protections dogs, military dogs and civil (police) dogs in accordance with the original breed standard. American dogs have been for some time bred for the show ring and as pets.

This divergence shows up in a dog's genetic programming. The drives that govern a dog's temperament (prey, defense, fight, and avoidance) come from genetics, not training (perfect training cannot supplant incorrect genetics). Meaning, that without the right bloodlines, the dogs are incapable of dealing with the stress of bite training and handler protection. As it is, most dogs (even schutzhund dogs) are too weak nerved and will show avoidance and run when threatened by a human being (who knows what he or she is doing).

Because prey and fight drive are 100% inherited, you cannot train these into a dog, and without them you have a breed that is a mere shadow of its former and intended self. Which, in my opinion, is what we have today.

Now, I'm not saying there aren't lots of working type jobs at which American dogs won't do very well. It's really a matter of degree. Can an American dog get a Sch1 or a even a Sch3? Be a search and rescue dog or get obedience titles? Sure! And I've seen it. But what I'm talking about is the original design of the breed.

So, without getting Tolstoy long, that's my nutshell version of how American and European dogs differ.

**avalonandon** · 06-06-2008, 10:39 PM

**Incredibledobe** · 06-06-2008, 10:54 PM

I agree very much with what whitecleats posted. I would add nerve to that equation too. I really think the nerve is much thicker in general and this perhaps is why we see more working ability. Conformationally I'll add that I also appreciate that the markings generally tend to be nicer, you don't find too many light eyes or noses. I think the bone is a bit denser, but don't think they are generally larger. I think our american dogs have more ribspring and therefore a larger chest in reality.
I have slowly started to add some American blood into my lines - 25% on one breeding. I have had very good results so far. We shall see what the future brings if I decide to add more.
I don't think heart health is any better, and I think there is maybe more eye disease, although I have not seen it. That may be because they test for it over there like we test for VWD.
This doesn't need to turn into a war, it could be a great discussion for all breeders!

~Lorna

White Cleats · 06-06-2008, 11:17 PM

Lorna,

I agree with you as well, particularly your remark about nerves. I only mentioned that in brief and didn't expand because I didn't want to make my post a diatribe against American show breeders. I'm a moderate in that I don't take a hard line against them. No, I'm not happy with the direction the breed has gone, but it's gone there and there's no turning back. The AKC isn't going to add a schutzhund like component as a requirement for breeding. So, there's no point in bemoaning the subject. At this point, I accept that there are two somewhat distinct uses for our favorite dogs and have moved on. Though I would like to see far more viable working breeders here at home.

However, where I know I can speak for everyone no matter which side of the fence you're on is the necessity of breeding for health and longevity over use. Show and working breeders alike must work tirelessly and diligently to keep sick breeding stock and lines from keeping the circle unbroken -- whether you'd like your dog to wink at the judges or eat your least favorite UPS guy.