American vs. European - Page 2

dobesanddragons · 06-07-2008, 12:35 AM

This is getting insulting not to mention this has been talk about to no end in the archives. I don't see this heading anywhere useful for the breed as a whole.

Edited: "white cleats" if you really want to know the answer to your comments and questions, click on my name and read some of the archives. I don't have time to write out the same things at this time.

White Cleats · 06-07-2008, 12:50 AM

You're insulted because you don't agree with me that those are the differences between European and American dogs?

tranquility · 06-07-2008, 01:03 AM

This is a good thread. It would be great if someone posted side-by-side photos to point out the physical differences between an Euro and an American.

**Incredibledobe** · 06-07-2008, 01:23 AM

I think that we need to all look at the breed as a whole and not be afraid to add bloodlines that can improve the breed, whether they be American or European. I think by making careful breeding decisions, we don't have to be so afraid of losing our type - while still improving our temperament.

I am not afraid to bring in American blood and will likely add more at some point. Though by doing this, I am likely to continue to take the hits from the working people for it and will have a harder time placing any pups I produce in serious working homes. But I have a clear goal in mind so that's okay. I have faith that eventually, the dogs will speak for themselves.

There are many extremes in breeding today and my theory is that is at least one reason why the breed is where it's at, show dogs only or working dogs only. Whether Euro or American, we have to look at maintaing everything!
The working people only who generally have Euro dogs, can be just as bad with wanting everything over the top. How about drive and nerve with a clear, stable mind? Good nerve will play a large part in that.

I think we forget that the doberman is about balance in everything, a medium dog, and most temperament traits, like sharpness should ideally be medium as well. Okay, I might like mine a little higher!

~Lorna

White Cleats · 06-07-2008, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incredibledobe

I am not afraid to bring in American blood and will likely add more at some point. Though by doing this, I am likely to continue to take the hits from the working people for it and will have a harder time placing any pups I produce in serious working homes.

You won't if you produce a consistent genotype and are successful at trial. If your foundation stock has Sch3 titles and a portion of their offspring do too, you'll get them into good working homes. Outcrossing with American bloodlines can potentially be transformative for the working side of the breed here at home.

**Incredibledobe** · 06-07-2008, 01:37 AM

How about a test instead?

Euro or American? No cheating! This is a 6 month old puppy.

White Cleats · 06-07-2008, 01:38 AM

Oh, crap. I lose. That's not something that matters to me so I'm not any good at it -- eyeing conformation in order to detect region of origin. But uh, how about American?

**Incredibledobe** · 06-07-2008, 01:46 AM

Sorry, Tranquility asked for photos side by side. I'm wondering if anyone can really tell the difference between Euro & American. Especially since there seems to be so many opinions on size. I guess my point is that its not so much about looks as it is temperament. I hope I said that right and don't insult anyone.

~Lorna

**Incredibledobe** · 06-07-2008, 02:00 AM

Ha! Ha! White Cleats, you lose - kind of

He's one of my crosses - 25% American. Here's Hoss enjoying his work.....

kitkat · 06-07-2008, 02:04 AM

I am originally from Europe, we do not spell it with 2 'n's. Some people do but it is not a rule for European doberman.

There is another major difference to point out. As far as I am concerned AKC does not require breeders to prove that their dogs are 'breeding quality' so basically all pedigree dogs are entitled to be bred and their progeny will have papers (they do not need to be shown, titled, trained - sorry I'm not sure if the health tests are required though). If I am wrong here please correct me.

I can tell you how it looks in Poland where I am from (Poland follows FCI standards so should be good example).

In Europe before you are allowed to breed your dog there are additional requirements to be met by both sire and dam. If you do not meet them puppies will not get their papers.
The breeding dogs must be over 18months old, you must show them both at conformation show and for the:
a) dam, when she is over 15 months old she has to get from at least 2 different judges 3 'Excellent' notes or "Very good' notes and one of them must be on the International Show or on local Doberman Club show.

b)sire, when he is over 15 months old he has to get from at least 2 different judges 3 'Excellent' notes and one of them must be on the International Show or on local Doberman Club Show.

Additionally their hips must be A or B, must be trained in Obedience and finally they must be qualified by the Doberman Club where they are thoroughly examined and get their extensive report from the judge.

Now I'm not saying that American breeders do not show their dogs - quite opposite. Good breeders show a lot and their dogs are titled. I had a Euro dobe before and he was wonderful, reliable with strong nerves and good drives, very healthy, friendly, beautiful black with mahogany, dark markings and dark eyes. At the moment I have a 4months old red male bought in Canada (but his father is from Argentina). Very happy and outgoing puppy, likes to play, fast lerner, so far so good!

So that's all I had to add. Now all depends what people are looking for in their dog. I hope we can help here others make the right search and decision by highlighting the main differences in Euro and American lines.

Regards to everyone.