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Old 03-22-2012, 04:08 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dreamsongs View Post
Yes I read that, at what age did he die and was that the only case ? How can I find this out...about the deaths and health issues going back 2-3 generations...?

In all his records he shows "negative" for Cardio. So what does it mean then ?
I would ask to see the test results to be absolutely sure he is even tested. If it is the DNA (PD4K) test, then what you should know is that this tests only one gene and that many dogs who actually have DCM are testing out negative with this test. Because the new DNA test is so inaccurate as to the dog having or developing cardio, you really need a negative holter and preferably echo as these are the diagnostic tests for heart disease. I hope that helps.

ETA: Without having it in front of me currently, I believe Grant died at age 5. That may be wrong on my part. You can research several databases (DVIN, Dobermann Review, Dobequest, ETC.) but be aware that not everyone is going to be forthcoming with COD info. I personally do not take gossip or speculation into account when looking at dogs. Just because a dog dies at 5 does not mean it was cardio, but in this case it was confirmed. You can also contact the actual breeders. I did a breeding with a Blackmagicland dog and the kennel has been very open to deal with.
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:13 PM   #52 (permalink)
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I would ask to see the test results to be absolutely sure he is even tested. If it is the DNA (PD4K) test, then what you should know is that this tests only one gene and that many dogs who actually have DCM are testing out negative with this test. Because the new DNA test is so inaccurate as to the dog having or developing cardio, you really need a negative holter and preferably echo as these are the diagnostic tests for heart disease. I hope that helps.
Thanks for that info, I will ask her that. Assuming the father does have good lines but the mother doesn't, what are the chances you can get a good pup and what percentage comes from mom/dad or is a genetic crapshoot ?
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:20 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Yes I read that, at what age did he die and was that the only case ? How can I find this out...about the deaths and health issues going back 2-3 generations...?

In all his records he shows "negative" for Cardio. So what does it mean then ?
This has been an issue for debate. Many folks believe it's wrong and misleading to write "cardio negative" or "cardio clear" when promoting a dog.

The only thing that truly is accurate to report, on cardio screening results would be, for a hypothetical example:

Holtor/echo normal 1-12-10, normal 1-12-11, normal 1-12-12

PDK4 marker test -/-

That would mean on the dates the heart was examined, it was found by cardiologists to be normal, and the PDK4 marker for one of the known associated genetic causes of cardiomyopathy was negative/negative.

Other results could be negative/positive (only one copy of the mutation) or positive/positive (two copies of the mutation).

All of the above merely show the animal's owner is diligently testing for the disease. It does not mean that animal will never develop DCM--there is no known cure or preventative--and it is always fatal.

About 50% of all Dobermans will at some point succumb to DCM. Some lines have lots of young deaths, some are possibly not accurately reported--weird reasons like "bad antibiotics" are given--these are usually considered "suspect" causes of death, likely are really from DCM.

Finding lines where the breeders are being diligent and responsible about testing and pedigree research, making sure that at the time of breeding the animal did not display DCM...that's about all you can do. Longevity in the pedigree, no doubling up on known cardio animals, lots of testing going on--that's what I'd want to see.

I lost my favorite boy ever, at only age three, to DCM.

It's a big deal.
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:25 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dreamsongs View Post
Thanks for that info, I will ask her that. Assuming the father does have good lines but the mother doesn't, what are the chances you can get a good pup and what percentage comes from mom/dad or is a genetic crapshoot ?
If you are impressed with Lance's pedigree, but not the dams, why not contact Bell'lavaro? They have a sire with a similar pedigree as Lance and much higher quality bitches. Plus, their sire is titled and health tested. They are in New York too.

ETA: they are breeding Lance to so-so females because they are NOT a good breeder. Genetically, the female matters just as much as the male. They are in it for money, plain and simple. If you want to improve the breed, you match dogs of equal quality that will improve each others faults. You don't just breed every sub-par female you have to a decent sire.

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Old 03-22-2012, 04:26 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RedFawnRising View Post
This has been an issue for debate. Many folks believe it's wrong and misleading to write "cardio negative" or "cardio clear" when promoting a dog.

The only thing that truly is accurate to report, on cardio screening results would be, for a hypothetical example:

Holtor/echo normal 1-12-10, normal 1-12-11, normal 1-12-12

PDK4 marker test -/-

That would mean on the dates the heart was examined, it was found by cardiologists to be normal, and the PDK4 marker for one of the known associated genetic causes of cardiomyopathy was negative/negative.

Other results could be negative/positive (only one copy of the mutation) or positive/positive (two copies of the mutation).

All of the above merely show the animal's owner is diligently testing for the disease. It does not mean that animal will never develop DCM--there is no known cure or preventative--and it is always fatal.

About 50% of all Dobermans will at some point succumb to DCM. Some lines have lots of young deaths, some are possibly not accurately reported--weird reasons like "bad antibiotics" are given--these are usually considered "suspect" causes of death, likely are really from DCM.

Finding lines where the breeders are being diligent and responsible about testing and pedigree research, making sure that at the time of breeding the animal did not display DCM...that's about all you can do. Longevity in the pedigree, no doubling up on known cardio animals, lots of testing going on--that's what I'd want to see.

I lost my favorite boy ever, at only age, three to DCM.

It's a big deal.
Wow, I didn't know DCM was really that prevalent in Dobes. I thought it was something they may develop at an older age. Sorry to hear about your 3 yr old, that's way too young to lose a dog of any breed.

Thanks for that info, I'm getting more informed every day...
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:29 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Can I ask an honest question? Why are you spending so much energy on this (IMO) dreadful breeder? There are many breeders out there doing right by the breed. They may not have puppies right now but they will.

No snark intended. Just extremely curious.


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Thanks for that info, I will ask her that. Assuming the father does have good lines but the mother doesn't, what are the chances you can get a good pup and what percentage comes from mom/dad or is a genetic crapshoot ?
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:40 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Thanks for that info, I will ask her that. Assuming the father does have good lines but the mother doesn't, what are the chances you can get a good pup and what percentage comes from mom/dad or is a genetic crapshoot ?
Biologically speaking, each parent will contribute 50% of the genetic material that determines what the puppy is like structurally and temperamentally.

Unfortunately, heredity and genetics aren't quite as black and white as they may seem. Some genes are dominant to others, some are recessive and only make a change in the dog when they receive two copies of that same recessive gene. Some things, like DCM and cardio problems, can have MANY genes that contribute to how likely (or unlikely) a dog is to develop the disease. More than one gene controls coat color. Two black dogs can have puppies that are all black, black and red, black/red/fawn/blue, OR even albino (if they are z-factored dogs that carry the albino mutation). Genes can be tricky buggers since many of them are recessive and are hidden by another, more dominant gene.

With that said, it is a bit of a genetic crapshoot. The sire will not contribute more or less than the dam of the litter, but no one knows which genes will be expressed in the puppy. That is why it is SO important to not look at ONLY the parents of the puppy but the generations of dogs behind the parents as well. It is not uncommon at all for a trait to skip a generation and rear its head again down the line. Good breeders typically will not breed to other dogs unless multiple generations behind that dog have proven themselves time and time again. That way, even if some traits to pop back up, or if the best aspects of the sire and dam do NOT appear in the puppies, the odds are still in favor of the breeding producing quality puppies of sound temperaments.

Here's a personal anecdote for ya... my girl, Liberty, always plays with her toys by lying flat on her back with her legs up in the air. She will hold her toy between her front paws and chomp on it, toss it around, etc. Apparently, Liberty's grandma used to do that ALL the time, but her sire hasn't really done it at all in his 10 years of life. It's just further proof to me that bits of their personalities ARE passed on genetically, and they absolutely can skip generations.

You asked why dreamscape would breed an average looking male to a less than average female. Simply put, they only care about profit. They don't really care about the quality of the puppies they produce. If they have a high demand for puppies from that male dog, they'll breed him to whichever female is in heat with complete disregard for the outcome. Don't expect them to refund you if your dog becomes ill or dies at a young age. I'll betcha they'd be happy to sell you a replacement dog though!

It's sad, really.
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:40 PM   #58 (permalink)
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If you are impressed with Lance's pedigree, but not the dams, why not contact Bell'lavaro? They have a sire with a similar pedigree as Lance and much higher quality bitches. Plus, their sire is titled and health tested. They are in New York too.

ETA: they are breeding Lance to so-so females because they are NOT a good breeder. Genetically, the female matters just as much as the male. They are in it for money, plain and simple. If you want to improve the breed, you match dogs of equal quality that will improve each others faults. You don't just breed every sub-par female you have to a decent sire.
Thanks, I will check them out...
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:46 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Can I ask an honest question? Why are you spending so much energy on this (IMO) dreadful breeder? There are many breeders out there doing right by the breed. They may not have puppies right now but they will.

No snark intended. Just extremely curious.
No offense taken....

Because I went as far as I did with them getting all the info I asked for before I even found this website.

Plus everybody has been extremely helpful educating me as to what to look for so I'm asking to educate myself further. I thought I knew a bit about the breed until I came here...
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:53 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Thanks, I will check them out...
By the way, Bell'lavaro's sire, Merlin, was in the movie Tower Heist along with one of their females
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:54 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Wow, I didn't know DCM was really that prevalent in Dobes. I thought it was something they may develop at an older age. Sorry to hear about your 3 yr old, that's way too young to lose a dog of any breed.

Thanks for that info, I'm getting more informed every day...
That's real data too, from a good long term study at the University of Guelph. About 60% of males and 40% of females.

I imagine the numbers are actually much higher in the section of the Doberman population that is in the hands of irresponsible folks who don't test. I also speculate that if we could get some of these folks to participate, we'd see the younger and younger onset of DCM deaths from these types of carelessly bred lines. Can't make everybody ethical, though, sadly.

Falling in love with this breed ain't for the faint of heart...no horrid pun intended.
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:01 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Thanks for that info, I will ask her that. Assuming the father does have good lines but the mother doesn't, what are the chances you can get a good pup and what percentage comes from mom/dad or is a genetic crapshoot ?
I always look at the 1st three generations as this is what will really affect the dog. Lance has a decent pedigree, aside from possible health issues, but he himself only has the paid for IABCA chamiponship. Not even a simple temperament certification to say that someone else judged this dog to be stable. He is also untested for thyroid, CERF, and elbows as I recall. If you are looking at Euro lines, you really want thyroid testing. Thyroid issues are prevalent and some research suggests that thyroid issues like auto immune thyroiditis is the cause of heart disease in these dogs. CERF is important too and if you look at the Euro dogs you will see that in spite of very minimal health testing, there is almost always an eye test.
They are breeding this dog because he is the dog they own and the dog they imported. They are not looking at what he is bred with or using a stud that would be a better match for their females (if they were even breed worthy which is debatable) because he is who they have. They are selling his pedigree, because of the titles within it with no regard to what the dog himself might produce.
This is just what the Euro greeders do. It takes a lot of knowledge, time and money to title a dog. And if you are breeding for money, it is going to put you way in the red to actually prove the dog.

ETA: Interestingly, there is no Lancelot Ly listed on the BML site under the "L" litter. Will have to do more research on this one...
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:10 PM   #63 (permalink)
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There are tons of great breeders in both Georgia and Florida.... off the top of my head, A'Monde, Mickadobe, Marquis, HollyWoods, Alpha, Adamas, Carousel, Pamelot..... in fact someone told me recently that Pamelot either has puppies or has a litter planned.

Check the DPCA Breeders Referral
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:48 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avianantics View Post
There are tons of great breeders in both Georgia and Florida.... off the top of my head, A'Monde, Mickadobe, Marquis, HollyWoods, Alpha, Adamas, Carousel, Pamelot..... in fact someone told me recently that Pamelot either has puppies or has a litter planned.

Check the DPCA Breeders Referral
I think Pamelot dogs are stunning <3 I'd definitely check them out.
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:58 PM   #65 (permalink)
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The other reason sub-standard bitches get used is that owners of quality bitches are not going to put her to an untitled (recongnised quality title, that is) untested stud. Even when all tests and titles have been done....the owners of the bitch are going to carefully select a stud that balances and contributes something that enhances or improves the qualities that their bitch will bring to the litter. It should be a very carefully and thoroughly researched/planned mating.

It seems that instead of getting the required testing, titles and reputation to make their stud attractive to potential quality matches, this breeder is going the instant gratification route of using what's available...because it costs less, and larger profits can be made straight away, and more frequently. Obviously...the only thing that is available to them right now....is substandard bitches.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:43 AM   #66 (permalink)
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My pup came from dreamscape and I am very sad I didn't find this forum and topic before I bought him.
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:27 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Well, too late now so just enjoy your puppy and learn from him. Pics?
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Old 12-08-2012, 06:59 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Well, too late now so just enjoy your puppy and learn from him. Pics?
I love him more than anything. I wouldn't trade him for the world. I am worried about his future health. His is my profile picture. He is 5 months now. I cant post recent ones because my computer is down and I am using my kindle.
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Old 12-08-2012, 07:09 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chasroth View Post
I love him more than anything. I wouldn't trade him for the world. I am worried about his future health. His is my profile picture. He is 5 months now. I cant post recent ones because my computer is down and I am using my kindle.
Owning any Doberman carries the worry about future health, it is what it is.

Good luck with your boy.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:35 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Love him, learn from him, and learn how to find a good reputable breeder or rescue for next time you get a dog. You can dislike the breeder he came from, and still love your dog.

I second some pictures!
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Old 01-08-2013, 11:04 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Quote:
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My pup came from dreamscape and I am very sad I didn't find this forum and topic before I bought him.
All you can do is learn. I am in a similar situation, except I had my female given to me by a friend that paid $500 from a BYB and couldn't handle it all, it was either me or the shelter, so I made the decision for them.

Enjoy the crap out of him, and use it as a very important lesson

Would love to see new pics when you have an available source as well!

Also, to the OP and 2nd poster, what ended up happening with them?
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