Breeding and Cardio

**Kalecho** · 04-30-2008, 01:31 PM

There has been much discussion about what we can do to breed away from cardio, and one imperative thing is breeders and stud dog owners have to be honest and let the fancy know of health problems, specifically cardio, in their dogs. My question is, how can we even think about eradicating this dreaded disease if even though honest about their dog or bitch diagnosed with cardio, we find those same dogs being linebred on , they appear more than once in many pedigrees. Is there any kind of rhyme or reason to this? I just don't get it, I see dogs in pedigrees within three generations, sometimes the same dog more than once and sometimes multiple dogs, people still use these dogs or linebreed on them even after they know? Opinions on this please?

DLS · 04-30-2008, 01:55 PM

Kalecho, I have been involved with this breed for many years. Over all those years Breeders, Vets, etc., have been trying to find a way to be able to diagnose cardio at an early age. So far, no luck. Yes it does seem odd that people continue to breed to a dog or a line that has Cardio. But, sorry, there just seems to be no rhyme or reason to how Cardio affects each individual dog. And until such time as there is a 'proof' positive test, we just do the best we can. If we eliminate every dog that has developed Cardio from our breeding programs we MAY be left with no dogs to breed to at all.
Sad, but true.

**Kalecho** · 04-30-2008, 02:07 PM

I think there's a difference between breeding wisely and trying to breed away from it and looking for problems, which I see in a lot of pedigrees. There are plenty of long lived lines without any cardio within three generations. Notice I did not say cardio free, I said no cardio in the first three genrations. I absolutely feel that if a dog is diagnosed with cardio he should be totally eliminated from any breeding program and especially not linebred on, no ifs ands or buts about it.

gracieface · 04-30-2008, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalecho

I think there's a difference between breeding wisely and trying to breed away from it and looking for problems, which I see in a lot of pedigrees. There are plenty of long lived lines without any cardio within three generations. Notice I did not say cardio free, I said no cardio in the first three genrations. I absolutely feel that if a dog is diagnosed with cardio he should be totally eliminated from any breeding program and especially not linebred on, no ifs ands or buts about it.

rather idealistic as some dogs are not diagnosised till after 7 years of age, by then they may have sired MANY pups, who in turn are already in breeding programs.
it is a shame that DCM is so prevalent in our breed, the breed would probably disappear if we eliminated all dogs with it.
according to Dr. O'Grady at Guelph, who has been conducting a very long term study on dobes and cardio, the gene pool is too small to eliminate it, we would have to breed out of the breed to do that.
very sad

DLS · 04-30-2008, 04:19 PM

Kalecho. if you have the time could you please list the long lived lines with NO cardio in the first 3 generations. I for one would be very interested to know them.

**Kalecho** · 04-30-2008, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gracieface

rather idealistic as some dogs are not diagnosised till after 7 years of age, by then they may have sired MANY pups, who in turn are already in breeding programs.
it is a shame that DCM is so prevalent in our breed, the breed would probably disappear if we eliminated all dogs with it.
according to Dr. O'Grady at Guelph, who has been conducting a very long term study on dobes and cardio, the gene pool is too small to eliminate it, we would have to breed out of the breed to do that.
very sad

Yes, very sad, although I do not think that breeders as a whole are working hard enough to try and "breed away" from this disease. There are lines that don't have it close up, it requires some work on the breeder's part to locate those dogs, but they are there.
There's nothing of course that can be done after a dog sires many litters and then is diagnosed with cardio. I sure wouldn't breed to a son of that dog, once I found out that he had it. Would you? Many people would AND they would linebreed on that dog too, which is in my eyes, very sad.

**Kalecho** · 04-30-2008, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLS

Kalecho. if you have the time could you please list the long lived lines with NO cardio in the first 3 generations. I for one would be very interested to know them.

DLS, the list would be composed more of individual dogs than lines, I'm not sure that it's a good idea to go and list names, just as it's not a good idea to list specific breeders that you would recommend. I do know that there are numerous dogs out there without cardio within three generations in their pedigrees. You can find these dogs as well as I can, all it takes is a bit of research.

Murreydobe · 04-30-2008, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalecho

I do know that there are numerous dogs out there without cardio within three generations in their pedigrees. You can find these dogs as well as I can, all it takes is a bit of research.

I'm all for keeping your hand as far away from the fire as possible. But realistically, we don't know if these "cardio free for 3 gens." pedigrees contain dogs that had the gene(s) needed to develop the disease and they just died before the DCM had a chance to be expressed. Their littermates and other close relatives could be just as important as well, much like evaluating a pedigree for HD.

There just aren't any easy answers. Breeders can do the best they can, but they're really spitting into the wind until there's a dna test.

DLS · 04-30-2008, 06:55 PM

Well Kelacho, therein is the problem. No one wants to talk about it at all. It seems we all hear about the dogs that died from Cardio, but I do not hear anyone talking about their dogs that are not dying from it. If I had a line of Dobes who had 3 generations of Cardio Clear dogs, I would be shouting it from the rooftops. And I'm sorry but for these dogs to be deemed Cardio Clear, they would have had to live to a ripe old age and died of natural cause, not Cardio related.

tosca · 04-30-2008, 07:27 PM

Problem is - just as no one can guarantee that a dog will come down with cardio, no one can guarantee they will not. Therefore, to say that you have 3 generations of cardio clear dogs may be making a statement one doesn't wish to make. I feel it is important to disclose test results, if you do test for cardio - and when you know you have cardio deaths/diagnosis close in your pedigree, to try to breed away from it instead of simply testing your young breeding stock to make sure they don't have cardio when you breed them at age 3, and be satisfied with that.