vWD Question?

JAXDOG · 04-26-2008, 10:17 PM

So, I'm curious about something. I've noticed breeders talking about breeding affected dogs to clear dogs. It sounds as if this is a trait that requires two genes to make the dog affected, correct?

My question is this. As responsible breeders that are trying to do ethical breedings, why would you need to breed even a carrier? Aren't there plenty of great Champion dogs out there that are clear that would further the breed?

The more I hear about vWD it seems to be similar to HYPP in Quarter Horses, at least how it is passed on. This is a horrible disorder for the animal affected by HYPP. But they excel in halter as it causes muscle spasms and caused them to be "Schwartzenhorses". People loved the look, and bred to these horses without thinking of the consequences. Now, many breeders are realizing that the ONLY way to assure that they remove this disease from their horses is to only breed HYPP N/N, or clear, horses.

Just curious, it would seem to me the best thing to do would be not to breed even carriers? It would be such an easy disease for breeders to remove completely from their breeding stock, or is there something about how this works that I'm not aware of?

Dobeman · 04-26-2008, 10:40 PM

It is my understanding that a carrier will not be affected by the disease (i.e. won't bleed out b/c of vWD) and statistically passes on the gene 50% of the time. Is there any evidence that a carrier has had bleeding issues b/c of vWD?

I personally find it unacceptable to potentially produce affected dogs, especially when justified by the "our gene pool is too limited" discussion.

However, on the grand scale of things, when considering all the diseases our Dobies can have, vWD is not the worst one to worry about in the Doberman breed.

I do know cases where vWD affected dogs were in trouble, e.g, certain surgical procedures were more risky or impossible. I have heard stories of dogs bleeding out because of being vWD affected, but don't know anyone personally. I used to own a vWD affected bitch and she never had any problems, not in daily life, not when she was spayed.

Avoiding to produce vWD affected dogs IMHO is important. I don't see anything wrong with carriers. When owning a vWD acrrier, breeders would be limited to having to find a clear dog/bitch in addition to all the other criteria we have for improving the breed.

My 2 cents..

JennSLK · 04-26-2008, 10:48 PM

Im not sure what my stand is on VwD tests. i know tons of Affected dogs who have no problems with bleeding thier entire life. Yet Jazzs mom who was a carrier and her sister (untested) both almost died from bleeding out during a spay and the vet said they must be affected. I have also heard from other breeders that they have more problems with carriers bleeding than affected.

I will still test tho and try not to get afected.

Dobemom2b · 04-26-2008, 11:33 PM

Most vwd affected dogs never become clinically affected. It is best however to know their status before elective procedures so cryoprecipitate or blood is on hand.

vWD is not the only clotting issue a dobe can have so many if not most vets will also do a clotting test just before surgery. A vWD clear dog can still bleed from other problems.

The reason vWD has not been eliminated by breeders is that it is only one factor to consider. Conformation, temperament, working ability and health should be considered as well. It would not do the breed justice to eliminate a clotting issue most will never be clinically affected by as a trade off for shortening lifespans by decreasing the size of the gene pool and possibly increasing the risk of cardio, wobblers, hip/elbow problems, eye problems, thyroid etc.

Sometimes in life you have to choose between the lesser of 2 evils.

It can be eliminated over time by not breeding to produce more affecteds. Clear to carrier breedings produce only clear and carrier pups, clear to affected produces only carriers, clear to clear produces only clear.

The OP question was why breed anything but clears at all.

Kalecho · 04-27-2008, 12:24 AM

VWD Can be eliminated without decreasing the size of the gene pool. We can still use affected dogs as long as we breed them to clears. It would take a few generations but it can be done. We could eventually breed out the affecteds and the carriers. It is true that there are only a small amount of clinically affected dobermans and that VWD is very mild in the doberman. But it is a disease that we have a genetic test for so why not try to eliminate it if we can?

sorthund · 04-27-2008, 10:35 AM

It could be done BUT we have to be careful not to create other problems by doing that. There are a lot of clear dogs with heart problems in their line, in my opinion these dogs should not be bred. I'd breed out heart problems if possible, rather than vWD any day. JMO.

Kalecho · 04-27-2008, 11:49 AM

I think it goes without saying that we shouldn't knowingly breed to heart problems, that's a given. I do believe that there are a good amount of clear dogs out there that do not have cardio close up in their pedigree and are not linebred on cardio that would also pass an EKG or holter monitor test. And there are ones out there with a more diversified pedigree instead of being limited to the same dogs day in and day out from breeding to the flavor of the day. They are out there, it just requires a little bit of effort to find them. As I said if we take everything into consideration, health temperament and conformation, and the right dog for the particular bitch, we can still do this without limiting the gene pool by still including the affecteds in our breeding programs as long as they are bred to clears.

DLS · 04-27-2008, 12:20 PM

I am beginning to wonder if the DNA test available for vWD is really addressing the 'bleeding' tendency in some Dobes. JennSLK you say that one of your bitches was tested and is a carrier, but still bled after surgery. Well, if I am not mistaken there are 8 types of bleeding disorders. And the vWD test available to us only tests for one of these. So is this vWD DNA test no better than the old test of checking clotting time before operations.
I too believe that the three big C's, Cardio, CVI and Cancer are still what shortens most of our Dobes lives. After 30 years of being involved with this breed,
I have never lost a Dobe because of bleeding.
Most of mine were lost to one of the three C's.

**ellenm** · 04-27-2008, 12:26 PM

I agree with DLS.

Also, I would not really compare vwd with HYPP in horses. I think they are very different diseases. Horses affected with HYPP have real troubles and do not really have a normal life. Dogs affected with vwd, unless one of the unlucky few "clinical" affecteds, do live normal lives.

I have a clotting test run on any of my dogs prior to surgery, vwd affected or not. As a poster above said, there are several bleeding disorders, not just vwd.

Kalecho · 04-27-2008, 12:42 PM

True, but if this is a disease we can eliminate, I believe we should try as long as we aren't opening the door to other problems. This is something I've changed my opinion of over the years, I used to think that VWD is not important, but it is because some dobermans can and will bleed out because of it. I don't feel we should just say since there are other types of bleeding disorders let's ignore VWD. We should try to eliminate it. Even though in the minority, there are clinically affecteds and if we eradicate this disease, we are one step closer to a healthier breed. Then hopefully we can get a DNA marker for cardio and work on eradicating that from our breed. One step at a time. By the way, does anyone know what the names of these other clotting disorders are? I've heard that VWD is only but one of many clotting disorders in the doberman but no one has ever named these disorders.