Indiana Noon Shine - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums

moona · 04-17-2008, 01:03 PM

I want to preface this by saying that I am NOT looking to buy a doberman from this breeder. This is a breeder that I came across when I began my search for a doberman. I had not found DobermanTalk before I got Roxy from Hand Me Down Dobes Rescue. Once I found this site, I searched on this breeder to see what you all had to say about them, and I didn't find anything. I wanted to post this to get others opinions on the breeder to help anyone else who might be searching for a breeder and come across them. Personally, I saw Red Flags all over the place, but I'd love to get fellow DT members opinions posted to (hopefully) help others. The website is: Indiana Noon Shine Home Page

Thanks!

**velmadobe** · 04-17-2008, 01:11 PM

well Uggghhhh - red flags indeed is the best I can come up with.

**triciakoontz** · 04-17-2008, 03:04 PM

Good gosh. That is one of the saddest things I have ever seen. It's rare that a puppy mill like this will actually post photos. Enough to make you sick.

Reds · 04-17-2008, 03:29 PM

"Welcome to the home of The Millers"

What a perfect last name for them!!!

GRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!

jdd · 04-17-2008, 03:33 PM

You think thats bad. Look at Harradens Dobie Den. They are working on their 6th litter for this year. And the last one they had they claim are "show quality". One bitch that had a litter a few months ago, it was I believe her 6th litter. They breed lots of fawns. The only testing they do is VWD which is a big red flag right there. Pet breeders seem to ONLY test for vwd and nothing else.

moona · 04-18-2008, 09:04 AM

Thanks everyone for the replies. Hopefully having this information here will help others who might be searching in my area. Even though I knew literally nothing at the time my search began, I just knew this wasn't good. Thank goodness for gut feelings, right?

gracieface · 04-18-2008, 09:23 AM

gee, they have puppy mill written all over them, 3 breeds and they get their dobe studs from Kimbertal! but it is a nice looking website and the uninformed will be sucked in. What a shame.

puddles · 05-03-2008, 09:41 PM

Harradens Dobie Den owned by Lisa Harraden is a horrible kennel to consider adopting a Doberman pup from. Their puppies are chained outside and money is the ONLY reason they breed. There are many reputable breeders in NC to choose from. Don't waste your time or money at Harradens Dobie Den Harradens Dobieden Horrible Facts read before you buy from Lisa Harraden |

dobermomma · 05-08-2008, 10:25 PM

Satisfied Customers

They test all their dogs for vWD. The vWD affected dog mentioned here is only bred to a clear male. And they have 13 dogs! Why shouldn't they have 7-8 litters a year when they have 9-10 females? How many of you know that Marienburg's Repo Man was vWD affected? Oh wow! Guess he shouldn't have been bred either. And he died at a very young age. Hmmmm, guess he was a really bad dog too since he died so young. Is everyone so paranoid about this great breeder that they feel threatened? Did anyone ask why this breeder does not show her dogs? Could it be that both Ernie and Lisa work full time? Could it be that they also breed exotic birds for zoos and have quite a bit of time and money invested in the health of their aviary inhabitants? Why is everyone jumping the gun before questioning the breeder? I've seen their dogs. They are not on chains. They are in spacious outdoor pens where they get plenty of fresh air and sunshine. They also live in a temperature controlled kennel with private pens. Just because their dogs are outside does not mean they don't care for them. I bet their dogs are taken care of a lot better than most owners one one or two dogs. I think if I was reincarnated as a dog, I'd beg to be one of their dobermans.

wantsaDobe · 05-08-2008, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobermomma

Could it be that both Ernie and Lisa work full time?

Why are you speaking in the third person?

dobeguy · 05-09-2008, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobermomma

Satisfied Customers

I've seen their dogs. They are not on chains. They are in spacious outdoor pens where they get plenty of fresh air and sunshine. They also live in a temperature controlled kennel with private pens. Just because their dogs are outside does not mean they don't care for them. I bet their dogs are taken care of a lot better than most owners one one or two dogs. I think if I was reincarnated as a dog, I'd beg to be one of their dobermans.

Maybe you should learn a little about Dobermans before you say that. Dobermans are indoor dogs that need to be physically close to the family, not raised in an outdoor kennel.

They do no health testing, claim their dogs have an excellent confirmation, which from the pictures is obvious they don't, import their males from the puppy mill known as Kimbertal. Give me f'ing break, if there dogs actually had great confirmation then why not show them? If they work full time why not hire a handler to get them there Ch.? Let me guess because it will cut into their profit margins right? If there so busy with work, then how do they expect to take care of all the dogs they have? Nothing disgust me more then people who try to make a living off the backs of their animals. Have some morals and get a real job.

I too would love to see you come back as a puppy mill doberman, spend your entire life in a kennel being forced to procreate and never experience any love and care, and then one day discarded like garbage.

I find it funny that your previous posts were used to defend this same breeder?

What do you think about this site?

Why do you only show up when this mill is being discussed? Why don't you fess up to who you really are, and not pretend to play this not so clever game?

puddles · 05-10-2008, 07:28 AM

The pup with the torn up neck is a pup born and raised at Harradens Dobieden. Lisa Harraden tries to say she saved that pup but that is not true. He is off the breeding of her dogs Sadie rose and Moose and was born in JAN. of 08.

Incredibledobe · 05-10-2008, 11:04 AM

Since Dobermomma is here, I just had to respond to this statement she made in another thread referring to health testing...

of all the breeders I've asked, only the "show" breeders SAY they check for all these things.

This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You really think health testing is just for show dogs? You really think that statement, that bit of "research" you did justifes YOUR actions??? This statement lends even more credence to the fact THAT YOU SHOULD NOT BE BREEDING!!!! Health testing is for THE GOOD OF THE BREED AS A WHOLE!!!

DOBERMANS ARE NOT KENNEL DOGS!!! Do your research! the dobe was created as a companion/protection dog. They NEED to be with you! No Dobe in a kennel is a happy or healthy dobe and I don't care how clean, temp controlled, or whatever that kennel is. A kennel is a kennel is a kennel! DOBES ARE NOT KENNEL DOGS!

~Lorna

Lexus · 05-10-2008, 11:23 AM

All I can say..

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."- Martin Luther King Jr

Seemed to kind of sum everything up IMO

Lexus · 05-10-2008, 11:30 AM

I do have to say in addition as a warning-- Doberman Talk will NOT be the battlegrounds for personal debates. From time to time, it is just going to happen, it is just the nature of people, but it can not continue or all people causing the disturbance will be displined or banned. It is a fine line, between stating facts and awareness that needs raised regarding questionable (at best) breeding habits, and WW3. Please keep this in mind. This is the last warning that will be issued on this subject before action is taken.

I encourage all newer members, dobermomma (dobieden of course) and puddles to explore other parts of the forum and interact in other discussions as the rest of our regular functioning members do. Reminder to the newer membership - Doberman Talk Forums - Announcements in Forum : Site News

Some healthy discussion and debate only serves as educational material for current and future Doberman Talk membership, just keep it civil and rational. As long as it stays constructive and clean, this thread will remain open.

Thanks!

Lexus · 05-10-2008, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobermomma

Satisfied Customers

They test all their dogs for vWD. The vWD affected dog mentioned here is only bred to a clear male. And they have 13 dogs! Why shouldn't they have 7-8 litters a year when they have 9-10 females? How many of you know that Marienburg's Repo Man was vWD affected? Oh wow! Guess he shouldn't have been bred either. And he died at a very young age. Hmmmm, guess he was a really bad dog too since he died so young. Is everyone so paranoid about this great breeder that they feel threatened? Did anyone ask why this breeder does not show her dogs? Could it be that both Ernie and Lisa work full time? Could it be that they also breed exotic birds for zoos and have quite a bit of time and money invested in the health of their aviary inhabitants? Why is everyone jumping the gun before questioning the breeder? I've seen their dogs. They are not on chains. They are in spacious outdoor pens where they get plenty of fresh air and sunshine. They also live in a temperature controlled kennel with private pens. Just because their dogs are outside does not mean they don't care for them. I bet their dogs are taken care of a lot better than most owners one one or two dogs. I think if I was reincarnated as a dog, I'd beg to be one of their dobermans.

"and Puddles bought a dog from us and raved about it. Her name is Linda Neville and her letters of praise are posted at Satisfied Customers her dog got sick in HER care but her vet raved about what a wonderful dog it was for 3 months after she bought it. Gee, wonder who the abuser is now, LINDA!!!!!!"

Seriously, can we quit with the third person??

If you want to have a serious discussion about this... if you are so busy, why are you having so many litters a year???? And why are hips/elbows/cardio (etc) testing not important to you? Did you know that DCM is one of the biggest killers of dobermans? How many people lose their beloved pets to DCM? Why is that not important to test for?

You want to be taken seriously as a "good" breeder, so lets have a mature discussion so we can understand your stance on chosing not to health test, when you claim so much money is going out on the birds, why are the dogs losing out, and the future owners of untested puppies while we are at it.

**Luvbirds** · 05-10-2008, 12:04 PM

This *IS* the life that every Doberman on the face of the earth deserves. I can't imagine having my precious boy live in a kennel full time.

JavasMom · 05-10-2008, 12:07 PM

Not to pour more gasoline on the fire, and I am speaking as an owner having NO experience in conformation. After seeing the Miller's home page and reading thru their Doberman info, my second red flag was the use of Dobes from Bosnia. Yugoslavia was a war zone during the 90s, remember? I wouldn't import any dog from that part of the world without seeing the operation first hand to ensure that the bloodlines are as pure as the breeder is claiming.

Have to second Luvbird's sentiments: Java is too much of a diva to be kennelled. Shivers if the indoor temp drops below 68 inside the house in winter. Her idea of 'roughing it' is being 'forced' to use her floor pillow to flake out on instead of my bed.....

dobebug · 05-11-2008, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobermomma

Satisfied Customers

They test all their dogs for vWD.

I test my dogs for vWD status too--and I don't even breed them so breeders that seem to test only for vWD are a red flag for me.

Quote:

The vWD affected dog mentioned here is only bred to a clear male.

While that's good and doesn't produce any more affected dogs (only carriers) I don't thing that statement has any merit really when you consider the rest of what you are saying.

Quote:

And they have 13 dogs! Why shouldn't they have 7-8 litters a year when they have 9-10 females?

I can think of a whole bunch of reasons that no breeder should have 7 or 8 litters a year even if they have 13 dogs. Starting with the fact that there really aren't enough GOOD homes for dogs period, much less Dobermans. There are a ton of Dobes in rescue who all got there by being excess baggage for someone--uncontrollable young males who someone never trained. Oldsters whose owners died. Dogs whose owners separated and even, sadly, dogs who no longer matched the decor.

Quote:

How many of you know that Marienburg's Repo Man was vWD affected? Oh wow! Guess he shouldn't have been bred either. And he died at a very young age. Hmmmm, guess he was a really bad dog too since he died so young.

I think it's common knowlege that Repo Man was vWD affected. Actually I had less of problem with RP being bred because he was not a very good example of a Doberman than I had with him being vWD affected. And it was sad that he died young but one of the problems with breeding dogs young is that you find that you've bred to a dog with a genetic problem. In the case of RP it probably wouldn't have made any difference but behind him it is now clear that liver problems are showing up in a good many of the SA dogs. He was the prime example of a big winner who had a ton of flaws as a Doberman--but I don't see exactly what that has to do with the breeder you are defending. I don't defend Mary Rodgers when it comes to health testing--I know she doesn't do enough.

Quote:

Is everyone so paranoid about this great breeder that they feel threatened? Did anyone ask why this breeder does not show her dogs? Could it be that both Ernie and Lisa work full time? Could it be that they also breed exotic birds for zoos and have quite a bit of time and money invested in the health of their aviary inhabitants? Why is everyone jumping the gun before questioning the breeder? I've seen their dogs. They are not on chains. They are in spacious outdoor pens where they get plenty of fresh air and sunshine. They also live in a temperature controlled kennel with private pens. Just because their dogs are outside does not mean they don't care for them. I bet their dogs are taken care of a lot better than most owners one one or two dogs. I think if I was reincarnated as a dog, I'd beg to be one of their dobermans.

I'm not paranoid about this breeder. I have nothing to be paranoid about. I don't breed. I do show. I get my dogs from breeders who I think are breeding for the better dog not for another litter. My dogs are champions--I work full time and always have. My dogs are inside dogs--I don't really think Dobes do well as outside dogs or as kennel dogs. I've known people who were around when Dobes were imported and often kept as kennel dogs and had a REALLY bad reputation--even worse than they do now. Several of these old timers told me essentially the same thing; that they did not believe that it's so much that Dobe temperament has improved (if you think that a mellower dog is an improvement) over the years as that very few Dobes now are bred and live as kennel dogs. They've said that they were intended to be family dogs, personal dogs and do best that way.

I don't think I'd care to come back as someones kennel dog even if the kennels were climate controlled.

dobermomma · 05-11-2008, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobeguy

Maybe you should learn a little about Dobermans before you say that. Dobermans are indoor dogs that need to be physically close to the family, not raised in an outdoor kennel.

They do no health testing, claim their dogs have an excellent confirmation, which from the pictures is obvious they don't, import their males from the puppy mill known as Kimbertal. Give me f'ing break, if there dogs actually had great confirmation then why not show them? If they work full time why not hire a handler to get them there Ch.? Let me guess because it will cut into their profit margins right? If there so busy with work, then how do they expect to take care of all the dogs they have? Nothing disgust me more then people who try to make a living off the backs of their animals. Have some morals and get a real job.

I too would love to see you come back as a puppy mill doberman, spend your entire life in a kennel being forced to procreate and never experience any love and care, and then one day discarded like garbage.

I find it funny that your previous posts were used to defend this same breeder?

What do you think about this site?

Why do you only show up when this mill is being discussed? Why don't you fess up to who you really are, and not pretend to play this not so clever game?

because this thread just popped up on her slanderous site at freewebs.com. They do NOT import their dogs from Kimbertal, and the picture posted of Scout is the dog they RESCUED from the buyer after 7 weeks that they had it outside on a chain. Dobermans do not HAVE to be indoor dogs.

dobermomma · 05-11-2008, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobebug

I test my dogs for vWD status too--and I don't even breed them so breeders that seem to test only for vWD are a red flag for me.

While that's good and doesn't produce any more affected dogs (only carriers) I don't thing that statement has any merit really when you consider the rest of what you are saying.

I can think of a whole bunch of reasons that no breeder should have 7 or 8 litters a year even if they have 13 dogs. Starting with the fact that there really aren't enough GOOD homes for dogs period, much less Dobermans. There are a ton of Dobes in rescue who all got there by being excess baggage for someone--uncontrollable young males who someone never trained. Oldsters whose owners died. Dogs whose owners separated and even, sadly, dogs who no longer matched the decor.

I think it's common knowlege that Repo Man was vWD affected. Actually I had less of problem with RP being bred because he was not a very good example of a Doberman than I had with him being vWD affected. And it was sad that he died young but one of the problems with breeding dogs young is that you find that you've bred to a dog with a genetic problem. In the case of RP it probably wouldn't have made any difference but behind him it is now clear that liver problems are showing up in a good many of the SA dogs. He was the prime example of a big winner who had a ton of flaws as a Doberman--but I don't see exactly what that has to do with the breeder you are defending. I don't defend Mary Rodgers when it comes to health testing--I know she doesn't do enough.

I'm not paranoid about this breeder. I have nothing to be paranoid about. I don't breed. I do show. I get my dogs from breeders who I think are breeding for the better dog not for another litter. My dogs are champions--I work full time and always have. My dogs are inside dogs--I don't really think Dobes do well as outside dogs or as kennel dogs. I've known people who were around when Dobes were imported and often kept as kennel dogs and had a REALLY bad reputation--even worse than they do now. Several of these old timers told me essentially the same thing; that they did not believe that it's so much that Dobe temperament has improved (if you think that a mellower dog is an improvement) over the years as that very few Dobes now are bred and live as kennel dogs. They've said that they were intended to be family dogs, personal dogs and do best that way.

I don't think I'd care to come back as someones kennel dog even if the kennels were climate controlled.

I believe everyone should just STOP trashing the Dobieden. Doesn't Puddles have a life to live that she has to keep trashing the Dobieden all over the web and all over this list? Leave it alone and get on with something more intelligent.

Incredibledobe · 05-11-2008, 10:02 PM

We're not trashing anyone, we are all trying to explain to you - "dobie Den", Lisa Harraden or whoever you are, and people who read this thread looking for a REPUTABLE breeder, why what you are doing is harmful to this breed that we all care deeply about and how you are misguiding an unsuspecting puppy buyer with your lack of knowlege. It is these types of breeding practices that really hurt the breed and keep perpetuating the health & temperament problems already in existence. I will guarantee you that a kennel raised dobe will not have the same temperament as one raised lovingly in a home as they should be.
Instead of getting defensive, why don't you open up your mind and take some education from what you are reading here? That is, if you really care more about these dogs than just making a profit from them. If you do, you will be open to changing what you are doing and not making your Dobes solely a money making venture for you.
There are those of us here who breed and those that don't. Even the ones who don't are often putting more into their Dobes in the way of titling, testing, and affection than you are currently doing as a so-called breeder.

~Lorna

dobeguy · 05-11-2008, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobermomma

picture posted of Scout is the dog they RESCUED from the buyer after 7 weeks that they had it outside on a chain.

And who's fault is that? Here is a wild thought, maybe if this breeder doesn't have 7+ litters a year she could better screen potential homes. It is the breeders responsibility to makes sure ALL their puppies find loving homes. Like Dobebug said that will be difficult to do when placing 70+ puppies per year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobermomma

Dobermans do not HAVE to be indoor dogs

This statement just saddens me. Even a novice such as myself, realizes Dobermans are bred to be personal protectors. How the hell can a Doberman fulfill its intended goal by being kept in a kennel or tied out in the backyard? Furthermore, Dobes need attention and affection from their human caregivers to develop properly, without this they can develop unfortunate temperament problems.

Lexus · 05-12-2008, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobermomma

I believe everyone should just STOP trashing the Dobieden. Doesn't Puddles have a life to live that she has to keep trashing the Dobieden all over the web and all over this list? Leave it alone and get on with something more intelligent.

Since you have nothing to say for yourself on any of the health concerns that have been raised about your continuous breedings... I'll just address your questions. Honestly, you advertise online, it's public venue. It's out there for everyone to see. And this is a public forum. We discuss things related to dobermans. That's what we are here for. And, just speaking for myself, I find it highly intelligent to educate future doberman owners about the "right and wrong" breeders out there so they can save themselves some heartache down the road.

I'd recommend maybe spending some time here visiting different areas of the forum and learning a thing or two about responsible breeding and ownership. It's never too late to do the right thing by your dogs.

Lexxsmom · 05-12-2008, 09:34 AM

I don't have much to add here but I have to say that the statement

"dobermans do not HAVE to be indoor dogs" is disgusting. If you don't have time to take care of 13 dogs, or however many you have, newsflash, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE THAT MANY DOGS.

My dog is more health tested than those and I have NO intention of ever breeding.

terrible