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Food allergy possible; coat itchy, dander, smells

10K views 77 replies 19 participants last post by  SieYa 
#1 ·
Hello friends, I am looking for advice from seasoned dobie owners who a) know what the coat is supposed to look or smell like and b) can tell me from the below if they suspect something is wrong with our Duke.

I will *try* to keep this brief.

I introduced ourselves and our dog on the welcome page a few days ago and I am now seeking your advice. Duke is almost 2 yrs old, a rescue from Aztec Doberman Rescue of San Diego. The rescue recommended Nature's Domain because it will keep flatulence at bay (I'm guessing it does as he not gassy) and it is a higher quality food that is also grain free. We are using the salmon and sweet potato formula with absolutely NO human food or wet food. Just kibble and water.

When we picked up Duke his coat seemed healthy (albeit dusty and a bit dirty from being kept outside during the daytime hours) with no smell and no visible dander. We drove straight to Costco from the rescue, picked up Nature's Domain and gave him his first meal. He seemed to like it fine. The next day we gave him a bath to clean up the dust on his coat.

Fast forward about ten days. We start noticing Duke has a very strong musky smell. Very visible dander now... and itching has started. We wait till the two week mark since his first bath and then gave another bath (vet said OK to bathe once per week but NO MORE). ONE DAY LATER the strong musky smell returns, more itching. A few days later VERY VISIBLE DANDER.

After I checked that his food was good quality on Dog Food Advisor's site--it came back as 4-stars--I thought it's a reaction to the shampoo. I waited one week till he was "due" for his bath (and barely could make it because of his smell!) and mixed my own homemade shampoo recipe: 1 cup water, 1 cup Seventh Generation dish soap (gentle and toxin free), 1 cup apple cider vinegar, and 1/3 cup glycerin. Shampooed Duke and we thought we were home free; he didn't smell for two days! Then BAM! The smell, dander, itching and now, shedding, started back up.

A couple of days later, while standing outside, I noticed the fur on his back, around the rump area was thinning. I freaked out and took him to the vet. He said there is definitely an allergy as Duke is not supposed to have dander, smell like this, nor have an oily-feeling coat, nor be showing bald spots.

He thought it was an environmental or inhaled allergen, eliminated a flea allergy, and thought that Nature's Domain *should* be just fine as food, but that we could come back and re-examine later, if it turns out it's not an environmental allergy. He gave him a cortisone shot and a prescription shampoo ($42!!) to help his coat and clear up the itching and dander.

He said we could wash him right away to start the healing process. We did that, it's been a week...and we are back to square one.

Mercifully the vet called to check up on him right as I was about to reach for the phone and call them myself. I relayed that there has been absolutely no change at all, he still smells, still dander-y, still itchy, and shedding.

He said the cortisone would have helped about 90% of dogs with environmental allergies, so if there was no change at all, it was now time to look at food as an allergen. He is prescribing ZD Science Diet.

I researched online and on this forum here and was not pleased with what I was reading, yet I really like this vet and this practice (ABC Veterinary Hospital in San Marcos, CA; highly rated and I was VERY pleased with their care and attention) so I am doubting that they would prescribe something harmful.

So net/net (thank you for reading along till now, if you are still with me!):
1) In your vast experience, do Dobies smell? Have very visible dander? And do they go through shedding cycles?
2) If the answer is no and you agree that there is an allergy, what has worked for Dobie owners who have come across this?

Please help. I am desperate and I am finding myself reluctant to be near him which breaks my heart--we rescued him so he could be LOVED, not avoided! Luckily our kids are oblivious to his stench and lavish all the love and attention on him they can.

Many thanks,
Hiba :confused:
 
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#63 ·
I honestly don't know what I would do without you all, especially LindaH who's been a wealth of information. Thank you seems so inadequate. Sorry it takes me a while to reply (work, kids, after school activities, plus I cook every night--we rarely eat out :nicejob:) but please know I read it all (sometimes in the strangest places) but I have to wait to get home to reply.

OK on the vinegar, Linda, and definitely definitely the holistic vet. I love mine and she's sure to recommend someone great. And yes, she does a full panel on his thyroid every couple of months now and we went down in dosage from the initial dose. I have printed out everything you all suggested and I read and re-read it to make sure I'm not missing anything. Again, I'd be utterly lost without you guys. What a great place for guidance and peace of mind. I will update soon again.

Vivienne, my hugs and love at the loss of your precious boy. How sad to lose him so young. We have them for such a short while that it seems extra unfair to say goodbye so suddenly. :(
 
#64 ·
Linda, Vivienne, and SieYa, I have a few questions, if any of you would not mind a little additional hand-holding...

Are chicken eggs considered dairy? When I started home cooking I started giving Duke 2 eggs with their shells (I cook them for now but will transition to raw) along with his cooked meat. I know most people consider eggs dairy but I'm pretty sure they're not, right?

Also, I am comfortable with how much to feed and variety but my biggest question is the transition from cooked to raw. I'm guessing it's gradual? Along with his cooked meat, give a little raw? And over how long of a period should the transition be? A couple of days? one week? two weeks?

When you feed organs such as kidney, heart, liver, etc. those are raw too? Do you cut them up and dole them out over a week or in one piece and count that as a meal? So many questions, sorry. I'm new at this.

Fish oil, Vitamin E oil, are we talking the same stuff humans take? Or is there a particular one made for dogs (it sounds so stupid to ask but I'm asking!! I don't want to screw anything up!!)

Most diets recommend yogurt, cottage cheese or kefir. Since he's allergic to yogurt and cottage cheese, is it OK to give kefir? SieYa recommends water kefir. Is there a difference? I will look for water kefir anyway, just to be safe.

Linda, I forgot to answer your question; NO ear infections ever. Clear as a bell there. Lastly, I found my SoCal BARF chapter! Yay! I'm going to compare some prices with local butchers and if I can't get on their good side (special treatment :) ), at least I have an option with SoCal Barf ... Thank you all so so much! :thanx:
 
#65 · (Edited)
Linda, Vivienne, and SieYa, I have a few questions, if any of you would not mind a little additional hand-holding...

Are chicken eggs considered dairy? When I started home cooking I started giving Duke 2 eggs with their shells (I cook them for now but will transition to raw) along with his cooked meat. I know most people consider eggs dairy but I'm pretty sure they're not, right? eggs are not dairy, they're chicken protein. When you start offering raw, I'd suggest feeding only 1 a day or every second day.

Also, I am comfortable with how much to feed and variety but my biggest question is the transition from cooked to raw. I'm guessing it's gradual? Along with his cooked meat, give a little raw? And over how long of a period should the transition be? A couple of days? one week? two weeks? slowly decrease the amount of 'cook' you put on your meats, don't put a specific time frame on it. If you're cooking and offer the occasional morsel of raw and it is well received you'll have a better time switching. Watch your stools that'll be your guide.

When you feed organs such as kidney, heart, liver, etc. those are raw too? Do you cut them up and dole them out over a week or in one piece and count that as a meal? So many questions, sorry. I'm new at this. I would offer organ only after you've transitioned to raw with 3 proteins in your rotation. Organ meat can and will create loose stool so when you do start offering it, again go slow. I went from frozen organ to raw, you could try a slight cook to raw or frozen to raw. Heart is also classed as muscle meat and not organ in terms of raw feeding. I feed it regularly in different forms. Organ is classed as any secreting organ. Lung, pancreas, liver, kidney, gall bladder, testes...I myself feed organ every day I grind it and freeze weighed out into ice cube trays. I only grind it as my littles are not fond of it and this is the only way you get them to eat it. Tank eats everything and anything

Fish oil, Vitamin E oil, are we talking the same stuff humans take? Or is there a particular one made for dogs (it sounds so stupid to ask but I'm asking!! I don't want to screw anything up!!)if I remember your boy has a potential issue with fish, you might want to try krill oil, or always double check you're getting salmon oil only. Sometimes it is salmon and 'fish' oil. But I. Terms of what to buy, yes you can purchase human ones

Most diets recommend yogurt, cottage cheese or kefir. Since he's allergic to yogurt and cottage cheese, is it OK to give kefir? SieYa recommends water kefir. Is there a difference? I will look for water kefir anyway, just to be safe. water kefir if most likely your best choice. Ask in your local health food store. It is usually refrigerated. It also isn't dairy based

Linda, I forgot to answer your question; NO ear infections ever. Clear as a bell there. Lastly, I found my SoCal BARF chapter! Yay! I'm going to compare some prices with local butchers and if I can't get on their good side (special treatment :) ), at least I have an option with SoCal Barf ... Thank you all so so much! :thanx:

always happy to answer any questions. It seems quite daunting at first having people you can turn to for answers help soothe the anxiety of the switch I think. Look into coconut oil, the benefits are incredible :)
 
#66 ·
SieYa you are amazing. Thank you!! I've said it before but honestly, what the heck would I do without you guys ...

I'm feeling so optimistic right now and even though the "glow" might wear off, there is something so satisfying about actually cooking a meal for him, like I do for my human family. And Dukey boy is such a joy to feed. He will eat anything and I am not faint of heart--I can't wait to see him eat his first raw turkey neck or chicken wings or leg quarters or any of the more "exotic" animal parts :)

I will of course not give any cooked bones but can't wait to get started on RMBs and marrow and knuckle for recreational chewing. He does have, at the age of 4, the most beautiful white CLEAN teeth. But I did notice as his allergies got worse, bad breath started developing. It had not gotten horrifying though, and now that we are heading in the right direction, I'm sure it won't get to that point.

In spite of all his issues he is such a love, such a joy to be around, so loyal and faithful and obedient.

Thank you SieYa for the prompt reply!!
 
#69 ·
I will of course not give any cooked bones but can't wait to get started on RMBs and marrow and knuckle for recreational chewing.
I no longer feed knuckle bones - I had an issue with one bitch breaking her teeth off - $500-$700 per root extraction, the cost was unwanted so no more knuckles.

They dry out in the weather. If you limit access to the knuckle so they just eat the fat and gristle and cartilage and stop them before they try to get right into the bone, then you reduce your issues by about 95%. Never leave the bones out - most people collect them daily and put them in the freezer (in a bag) so that the dog works on them slowly and they last longer (as a chew toy).

I am just not able to be that vigilant since I work and have no SO to help.
 
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#67 · (Edited)
I'm not sure the glow ever really wears off.

I love feeding raw, everything about it. I still have a morbid fascination with feeding things and bone crunching and feeding weird things.

I love knowing exactly what they're eating. I love it when people pet him and marvel over his coat quality :)

My best advice is to go slow, don't stress over things (if you can help it)

Never be afraid to ask any questions I asked some doozies of my mentor and I'm surprised she never laughed at me ;)

ETA: if you have FB check out a Planet paws essentials, and dogs naturally magazine they always share great info
 
#72 · (Edited)
Vivienne, thanks for the note about the knuckle and marrow bones. We have only done that once, yesterday, raw/frozen and he enjoyed it for a while and then we took it away. He did not manage to break it (or mercifully, break his molars...)

So we've been on clean raw for about ten days now and I noticed around day 5 he was a little constipated but still able to go poo, so I kept an eye on it. Came home on Friday night to a spot where he threw up, but there was just a yellow spot with a small square piece of rib bone (1" x 1") So then I thought, OK definitely too much calcium/bone. I'd been giving calcium from "reduced for quick sale" supermarket pork chops and pork ribs, and also every other day, by adding two eggs with their crushed shells to his meals.

So I backed off the bones and eggs completely and went to just protein, also from my supermarket's butcher who agreed to give me scraps for about .99/lb. I was giving Duke over the last three days or so chicken breast, chicken scrap meats beef stew scraps, beef stew meats, pork chops without bone, all of which came from my local supermarket's butcher as well as 2 sardines in olive oil from Costco (a can would cover two feedings). And I did not feed him last night because he did not seem interested in food and I also thought his system might need a bit of a break from all the raw flesh.

Good thing because last night at two am he woke us up squeaking needing to go outside at which point he had LOTS of diarrhea. This morning he had diarrhea again but had already pretty much purged his insides so not much came out. I was glad I did not feed him last night and I don't want to feed him this morning, just to give his insides a chance before tonight's feeding.

What do you ladies think is going on? Is this normal? The diarrhea was definitely soupy, not full-on liquid but definitely very wet. I expected softer stools but not sure if this much wetness indicates something worse than a switch in diet going on.

Also, I was reading that dogs can better handle food that is more suspect than humans can because their ancestors have had to bury prey and consume it over a period of days so they can handle stuff we can't handle. Also that dogs naturally have more salmonella and E. coli that live in their intestines and that helps them be less susceptible to illnesses from foods that have "passed". Lastly, that their intestinal tract is much shorter than that of humans and they can purge it more quickly. I'm pretty sure I've not given Duke "bad" food, just food that was marked "reduced for quick sale" for humans, and scraps from the butcher. What was going to be fed that day and the next morning went into the fridge and the remainder went into the freezer for later feedings.

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong and how to fix it? One note, as I said I found my local SoCal BARF chapter but unfortunately we had *JUST* missed the order date (it's the beginning of every month) so this month we have to figure out food from butchers and therefore I've been hitting up every supermarket in my area. BARF orders usually are .$79 - $.99/lb depending on what we order so it should be a bit more reasonable. Right now we've spent about $60 for a 2-week food supply for Dukey boy (we are at Day 10 and we still have food for 4 more days), simply because this happened so fast and we did not plan well for it. I hear the first month is always the most expensive anyway.

Again my deepest thanks for your support. We are meeting with his vet (she is holistic) this week to get her up to speed before we leave on Sunday 23rd for Thanksgiving holiday break. We leave Duke in a cage-free boarding house where he gets to hang out with other dogs and roam around and sleep on beds and couches! HA! I am packing all his meals in individual ziplocs and freezing them for his caretaker.
 
#73 ·
A bile (yellow) vomit with bone isn't uncommon. There are ways to deal with it but understand it is a normal reaction for the system when it identifies something that 'won't pass'.

I try and do heavy bone meals in the morning. This gives it all day plus another meal along side to help the digestion of the bone. Two a small snack can also help eliminate the problem. It gives the stomach something to work on other than that piece of bone or two that irritates the system.
I found it was much more of an issue during the transition period. The stomach and GI tract are learning to deal with the new food source.

Sometimes scraps are high in fat, or in the case of chicken fat and skin. This can and will cause loose stool or true cannon butt ;( I still remove chicken skin from 50% of the chicken I feed. Tank can't seem to handle much more without getting loose.

I purchase meats reduced for quick sale all the time. If it is still on the stores shelf you should be good.
At only 10 days into feeding raw It could just be that his system isn't quite ready for such a mix of different proteins.

I'm not one to condone feeding 'suspect' meats. Especially for those who's immune systems have already shown signs of stress. While certain bacteria are commonly present, a compromised immune system could allow them an in and wreak havoc.

He will need bone in the diet, I can tell you Tank needs a bone in meal of some sort every 3rd meal sometimes I can get away with 4. No bone seems to loosen up the old hind end if you know what I mean :p
Others I know do heavy bone meals only a few times a week.
Goes hand in hand with the balance over time thing.
You'll get it :)

First month is always the most expensive. Then you find sources and the 'ins' that help drop the price.

I would do a 24 hour fast and reset the system. Go back to a single protein source for at least 10 days. Then Slowly introduce a new protein. 1 meal new protein then back to old protein. Slowly increase the number of new protein (single introduction only) if you get cannon butt back off to amounts where the system was balanced. Once the new protein is tolerated well add in another protein following the same guideline. Some dogs handle introductions much smoother than others. His system will tell you how it's doing. If you're purchasing sardines in oil, I would rinse them before feeding.

I always tell people not to be in a rush to add new protein. As much 'fun' as it is, slow and steady will get you where you want to be much faster.
I'm brain storming so may add more info in a bit :).
 
#74 ·
I try and do heavy bone meals in the morning. What does heavy bone meal mean, exactly? The main meal where a meaty bone is given such as wings, necks, leg quarters, thighs, etc. or a meal that is mostly bone and less meat? Sorry :)

a small snack can also help eliminate the problem. It gives the stomach something to work on other than that piece of bone or two that irritates the system. OK, will do, and will make sure the snack is a protein that is the same as his meal
I found it was much more of an issue during the transition period. The stomach and GI tract are learning to deal with the new food source. Makes sense!

Sometimes scraps are high in fat, or in the case of chicken fat and skin. This can and will cause loose stool or true cannon butt ;( I still remove chicken skin from 50% of the chicken I feedYes indeed. I noticed that and I thought I removed A LOT of it, but I suspect it was the various proteins and THOSE had fat on them too. Plus the sardines! .

I'm not one to condone feeding 'suspect' meats . Especially for those who's immune systems have already shown signs of stress. While certain bacteria are commonly present, a compromised immune system could allow them an in and wreak havoc. I agree. I have been very careful to only feed stuff that is Reduced for Quick Sale but nothing that smells like it has passed.

He will need bone in the diet, I can tell you Tank needs a bone in meal of some sort every 3rd meal sometimes I can get away with 4. No bone seems to loosen up the old hind end if you know what I mean :p I totally agree, LOL!
Others I know do heavy bone meals only a few times a week.
Goes hand in hand with the balance over time thing.
You'll get it :)

First month is always the most expensive. Then you find sources and the 'ins' that help drop the price. Yes, as I said I can't wait to get started with the SoCal BARF folks. I spent 4 hours today driving around looking for food for him. Luckily I saw your reply--THANK YOU-- so I decided to just make it chicken purchases for now.

I would do a 24 hour fast and reset the system. Go back to a single protein source for at least 10 days. Is turkey considered chicken? Or should I treat it as a different protein? What about the eggs I have been giving him? I assume because they're organic chicken eggs, then they're OK too?Then Slowly introduce a new protein. 1 meal new protein then back to old protein. Slowly increase the number of new protein (single introduction only) if you get cannon butt back off to amounts where the system was balanced.Got it! Just like when I had my babies, and we were introducing solids to them...one at a time was the rule. Once the new protein is tolerated well add in another protein following the same guideline. Some dogs handle introductions much smoother than others. His system will tell you how it's doing. If you're purchasing sardines in oil, I would rinse them before feeding. YIKES silly me. I was not only giving him two sardines unwashed but actually sprinkling some of the oil in there, thinking he'd like some flavor... sigh...

I always tell people not to be in a rush to add new protein. As much 'fun' as it is, slow and steady will get you where you want to be much faster.
I'm brain storming so may add more info in a bit :)

I cannot thank you and Linda enough. I honestly am so grateful. This would have been a disaster without your guidance. None of the butchers I visited were much help; there was only "reduced for quick sale" food or full price, so I did both. I did find ONE real meat processor and I thought I struck gold after he told me that they grind up all their meats too, and make raw dog food. Unfortunately they add bread to it, as a binder and Duke can't have any bread from any flour. He said he would grind me special batches, but I'd have to buy 100lbs at a time at $2.00/lb. So I thanked him and kept searching. If SoCal BARF doesn't pan out, he might be my only choice. Sigh ... We are not rich people so other than stock up on sales and reduced price proteins, there's not much I can do. Have I said thank you yet?! :thanx:
 
#75 ·
Common Cuts: A Guide To Raw Meaty Bones - Raw Chat - PMR Articles - articles - Prey Model Raw

A guide to bones.

A heavy bone meal for us now would be beef necks, pork necks, oxtail, pig feet, pork ribs.
Chicken Necks used to give us trouble, but yet turkey necks (his fav) did not.
I think because he didn't have to actually chew them.

I had to stop feeding beef neck as the supplier decided to trim them so there was not a lot of meat on the bone. For Tank this was too much bone and even pumpkin wasn't able to help him out. I gave to a friend with a pittie mix and she had zero issue... Every dog is different :)
One thing I tell people who are switching is that a little bile vomit, occasional diarrhea or constipation is normal. It happens we'd have loosey goosey rear end in the am and a normal stool after dinner. Anything on going should be checked by a vet.
Turkey and chicken are while both poultry different proteins.
Eggs are chicken protein.
The snack doesn't have to be the same protein, neither does it have to be boneless. Just an ounce or two works for us.

I'd recommend getting sardines in water only. A friends mastiff will only eat the ones in tomato basil lol.

Each dog is a bit different and once you're over the hurdle of the switch you'll be able to tweak everything to what works best for 'you'.

If you do go with mr Grindy grinder. Make sure he knows and you reiterate that any sort of bread, binding agent what have you will make your dog very ill. He'd have to either grind yours first, or disassemble and clean to ensure no cross contamination. I'd ask if you could purchase what he's grinding in its more whole form for a bit less. Then you can see what you're getting!

You're most welcome :)
 
#76 ·
Instead of cutting back on the bone and shell, I would have added some small amounts of raw liver - that normally stimulates the digestive tract. I give a bone meal every night and the morning has the easy to digest meal since they should be more active: yogurt, raw egg, ground beef with bone and organ plus kelp and glm. Evening is necks bones or rib bones or chicken backs.

If Lana (Miss sensitive tummy of the 3) barfs up anything, I give her probiotics for the next 2-3 days with her breakfast.

I would be surprised that a normal dog would need any relief from raw flesh - lack of bone will cause runny poop. Normal ratio is 10% bone but I feed way more than that - sometimes I get white poop but as long as the dog is not constipated or straining, I let it ride. Liver help grease the digestion so to speak.
 
#77 ·
SieYa, Vivienne,

Thank you both so much! I met with the vet and she pretty much agrees with everything you are saying.

She cautioned against too much liver due to overload of Vitamin A. But she does want him on salmon oil, Forti Flor probiotic (I guess it used to be Rx but it has been now moved to the shelves. They found out that dog with allergies are doing very well on that; it helps heal their tummies?!) She also asked that I add back the potato which he is not allergic to, just the sweet potato gives him trouble. Plus green beans. She said especially in the hot summer months dogs love to snack on frozen green beans. Other than that she wants to wait and see. His poop improved with the single protein source. She did give him another steroid shot for the relief factor. She is hopeful this shot will last him through March (!!) because coupled with the switch to raw, the winter months will see a huge reduction in environmental allergens. She also said it will take at least 10 weeks to show the effects of the raw diet and to purge his system from the allergens buildup. Be patient and keep the faith, she says! Crossing fingers.

We are off to Thanksgiving vacation and I have all his food bagged and labeled for The Pet Whisperers (cage-free, run-free and very loving boarding, hiking, nature walks, etc.) We won't be back for ten days. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving and my deepest thanks to you all again and again!
 
#78 ·
Great news!

I would caution against the potato. It isn't needed in the diet, it truly isn't.
Green beans, again if what you're feeding is worth it why are you adding unnecessary items to the diet? I'd rather see steamed kale or veggies steamed and frozen. Never more than 10% of the daily diet.

Watch your oils, make sure you get Salmon oil. There are many 'salmon and fish' oils on the market.

Better yet add canned salmon to the diet straight from the source. I feed salmon head and tails, as they're inexpensive and often easy to obtain from most places that well fresh salmon.
Canned sardines are great for skin and coat too.

Have a great trip.
We can chat more even you get back.
 
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