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Locating a reasonable, reputable, breeder

8K views 80 replies 39 participants last post by  StarlightDobe 
#1 ·
Greetings to all. I am a new member the forum and was going to buy a puppy from a first time breeder and ended up backing out of the deal for a number of reasons - mainly the situation didn't seem right, kept getting worse, and I felt VERY uncomfortable getting the pup from them even though I wanted him very badly. I apologize for the upcoming, possibly incoherent, babble but I have a lot of random thoughts regarding this issue/search and I promise I'm not trolling so please be kind to my random-thought babble.

Currently I am looking for a puppy at a reasonable price(~$1000) without having to sacrifice quality. I've been lurking in these forums, as well as others, and have come to the conclusion that most of the members only really support breeders that charge a ridiculous amount of money for a "pet" puppy. I've gone through the list on DPCA of breeders and contacted most of them in my area and I can't believe that they charge $1,500+ for a pet. A lot of the breeders in my area have titled dogs, Good/Excellent OFA ratings posted, vWD clear, etc which is great for the breed but NOT great for the consumer's pocket book. I understand that these breeders have spared no expense along with an invaluable amount of time to do the right thing by the breed but how can the average Joe afford to get one of these dogs as purely a pet?

Lets say, hypothetically, all the Z-factored dogs were gone and we finally get rid of that pesky vWD problem, and hips/elbows/eyes were all certified excellent... the best possible scenario for the Doberman. That would leave the basically the dogs of an even higher quality remaining that would drive the price up even further making the Doberman even more out of reach for the average person, right?

My question (sorry for the babble) what is considered an acceptable dog that doesn't come from a breeder that has basically run the gambit on their dogs? Is it wrong to buy from a breeder that has been breeding for x+ years, owns the dogs, knows the history of their dogs (life span/health issues/temperament, etc) does background/reference checks, and genuinely cares where the pup goes even though they may not have done health testing or any kind of titling?

Thanks again for any responses. :thanx:
 
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#2 ·
Greetings to all. I am a new member the forum and was going to buy a puppy from a first time breeder and ended up backing out of the deal for a number of reasons - mainly the situation didn't seem right, kept getting worse, and I felt VERY uncomfortable getting the pup from them even though I wanted him very badly. I apologize for the upcoming, possibly incoherent, babble but I have a lot of random thoughts regarding this issue/search and I promise I'm not trolling so please be kind to my random-thought babble.

Currently I am looking for a puppy at a reasonable price(~$1000) without having to sacrifice quality. I've been lurking in these forums, as well as others, and have come to the conclusion that most of the members only really support breeders that charge a ridiculous amount of money for a "pet" puppy. I've gone through the list on DPCA of breeders and contacted most of them in my area and I can't believe that they charge $1,500+ for a pet. A lot of the breeders in my area have titled dogs, Good/Excellent OFA ratings posted, vWD clear, etc which is great for the breed but NOT great for the consumer's pocket book. I understand that these breeders have spared no expense along with an invaluable amount of time to do the right thing by the breed but how can the average Joe afford to get one of these dogs as purely a pet?

Lets say, hypothetically, all the Z-factored dogs were gone and we finally get rid of that pesky vWD problem, and hips/elbows/eyes were all certified excellent... the best possible scenario for the Doberman. That would leave the basically the dogs of an even higher quality remaining that would drive the price up even further making the Doberman even more out of reach for the average person, right?

My question (sorry for the babble) what is considered an acceptable dog that doesn't come from a breeder that has basically run the gambit on their dogs? Is it wrong to buy from a breeder that has been breeding for x+ years, owns the dogs, knows the history of their dogs (life span/health issues/temperament, etc) does background/reference checks, and genuinely cares where the pup goes even though they may not have done health testing or any kind of titling?

Thanks again for any responses. :thanx:
In answer to the part I bolded: a rescue. :)
 
#3 · (Edited)
Is it wrong to buy from a breeder that has been breeding for x+ years, owns the dogs, knows the history of their dogs (life span/health issues/temperament, etc) does background/reference checks, and genuinely cares where the pup goes even though they may not have done health testing or any kind of titling?

Thanks again for any responses. :thanx:

Contradiction.


From Rhapsody Dobermans:

THE PURCHASE:
The purchase of a purebred, registered puppy is a very important decision that should be considered very carefully.
In the purchase of a Doberman Pinscher (or any other breed), a buyer deserves a dog that is healthy, attractive, mentally sound, and functionally correct. It should be a dog that has the best possible chance of providing years of companionship, whether it be as just a pet... or for show events (conformation) ... or for performance competition (obedience, agility, flyball, tracking, schutzhund, etc)...or work (search & rescue, guide dog, medical assistance, therapy work, etc.)


THE BREEDER:
All ethical and responsible breeders health test, temperament test, title their dogs, and aim to produce only the highest quality Dobermans, which will better the gene pool.
Responsible breeders are choosy about which dogs they breed – they study pedigrees for quality in conformation, health, longevity, temperament and working ability.
All ethical and responsible breeders health test, temperament test, title their dogs, and strive to produce only the highest quality Dobermans, thereby improving the breeds gene pool.
They try to find the absolute best match for their female, sometimes traveling to great lengths to find the best male. Some people may feel it doesn’t matter which breeder they deal with because all they want is a nice pet...that it doesn’t matter if the parents of the dogs have any conformation, obedience, working or temperament titles. But it DOES matter! A breeder who doesn't health test, temperament test and title their dogs is basically saying that a buyer does NOT deserve any of this.

It's extremely insulting that a breeder would try to satisfy a person with something that requires less knowledge, less effort, less commitment, and less cost per unit. Don't settle for that!


THE SEARCH:
In your search for the "perfect" dog, you may have noticed that the prices vary widely. Newspaper ads may show one litter selling at $800.00 each and one at $1000.00 each. Though both are AKC registered, you will see through our conversations that AKC "papers/registered" are no indication of the quality of the pup. In this area a well-bred "pet" quality puppy generally starts at $1,500.00. Show quality puppies start at $2500.00 and go up from there.

Breeders set their own prices. Each breeder approaches breeding with a slightly different philosophy and has different regimens for raising puppies. Some are more involved and more thorough in pedigree research than others. Time and effort needed to research pedigrees, find the proper mate, breed and deliver healthy puppies, requires a breeder's time, energy and expertise...and generally speaking the price will reflect that.

If one divided the cost of a puppy over the 10+ years of a dog's life and takes into consideration extra veterinary expenses that may occur with poorly bred pups, the price is not unreasonable.


TAKE YOUR TIME:
Never settle for less because of time, money or other considerations. Your pup may be a part of your family for ten to fifteen years and compromises now will affect you and your dog for a long time to come. If you are not able to find the puppy you want immediately, a few weeks or months of patience will generally be rewarding. In fact, getting a pup from some of the better litters usually requires a wait - as many are sold in advance of whelping. So educate yourself, look around and see what is available by attending local shows and communicating with other owners. Talk with various breeders about required and expected standards and be wary of faults that are bred into the breed by the "backyard" breeders.





If you still don't get it, then I'm sorry but this might be the wrong forum for you. Please read our manifesto if you haven't already. Our sole concern is the welfare of the Doberman breed. I am in my 20's and am low/virtually no income as I am a student. I purchased my $1500 puppy from a great breeder. The price was nothing compared to all that I got out of the deal.
 
#4 ·
I get what you are saying and I understand that not everybody can afford to pay $1500.00 for a puppy. However, what you aren't taking into consideration is the current health status of this breed. They have lots and lots and lots of problems, serious, expensive, ongoing problems. So.......... if you get a puppy for, lets say $800.00 from a breeder that doesn't health test the likely hood is that you are going to spend tons of money in vet bills.

vWD for instance can be an issue during any type of surgery, be it spay, neuter, or??? Hip or Elbow Dysplasia can render a dog crippled and the medications to keep a Dysplastic dog comfortable aren't cheap. The surgery for HD is very expensive and will far exceed the original price of the dog. CERF (eyes) --- well eye issues can = blind, and a blind dog = a number of lifestyle changes for both dog and owner. Thyroid can generally be managed relatively inexpensively, once diagnosed and controlled. However, a full Thyroid panel can cost upwards of $200.00. Liver issues can be very expensive to manage and unfortunately copper toxicosis isn't all that uncommon in Dobes.

What I would do in your situation is save your pennies until you have about 2k saved, and go with a reputable breeder that both titles and tests their dogs. Or, Rescue. There are many nice dogs in Rescue needing homes. In either case be sure to acquire pet insurance.

Welcome to DT, and kudo's to you for asking questions. Please stay and learn.
 
#5 ·
I don't even know where to begin... so basically I'm not. All I'm going to say is this: commercial greeders already charge more than most reputable breeders, and my last litter cost me more than $1000 per puppy to produce (does not take into account the cost to show the bitch OR any of my time) - and it was a healthy litter with no complications. Do you really expect us to give you a puppy at a price that does not even cover our costs?

Let me ask you a question - Do you work for free? I'm very tired of people wanting a puppy from health tested, titled parents AND from a reputable breeder who stands behind their dogs....... but are not willing to pay what it costs for a quality dog. While this is a hobby for most of us, it is a very expensive one and we can't afford to give away puppies as most of us are not rich people.

Ghaaaaa
 
#7 · (Edited)
At this current point in time I'm not looking to rescue but thank you for the suggestions to do so.

In regards to the financial portions it isn't that I don't have the money to spend the $1500+ it's just that it seems a bit ridiculous for the average person to have to spend that much to get a pet. I understand, 100%, that we have the list of reputable breeders (for any breed) for a reason but I feel the prices they charge are getting to be outrageous and is only going to get worse as time passes on.

@Fitzmar... all I can say is wow. I'm not even really sure how to respond to what you said. To answer your question - no I don't work for free but I also don't expect people to pay top dollar to support my hobby. I can build you a computer that will cost $5000, will far exceed any PC you'll purchase at any retailer, and will last longer than anything you'll find from the top manufactures but I bet you'd still go to Best Buy(or your local electronics store) and buy a computer that is better for your pocketbook regardless of how long it will last or the quality of the parts.

Oh! And thank you to those that responded. Your input and knowledge is appreciated.
 
#8 · (Edited)
At this current point in time I'm not looking to rescue but thank you for the suggestions to do so.

In regards to the financial portions it isn't that I don't have the money to spend the $1500+ it's just that it seems a bit ridiculous for the average person to have to spend that much to get a pet. I understand, 100%, that we have the list of reputable breeders (for any breed) for a reason but I feel the prices they charge are getting to be outrageous and is only going to get worse as time passes on.

@Fitzmar... all I can say is wow. I'm not even really sure how to respond to what you said. To answer your question - no I don't work for free but I also don't expect people to pay top dollar to support my hobby.
I bought my first dobe between the normal prices ($1500-$2000 + shipping from CA to VA), a little over a year ago. I'm 17 as of now, and I have very little "privileges" money wise. Everything I have is earned (pay from my own phone, dog food, vet, training, etc) - and I see absolutely no problem with the prices breeders charge. This breed is expensive. And not the healthiest (ie, this breed is plagued - heart problems, blood problems, joint problems, etc) - and if not properly bred or tested, this breed would perish. Dogs need to be properly conformed, and healthy. That costs money to produce.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Puppy prices don't "support a hobby" - that makes it seem like breeders should operate in the red, just so people can get their cute pet puppies at a more affordable price. I don't really see that as fair.

When I got my first Doberman more than 10 years ago, pet price was $1200. But fuel was also about $1.65/gallon, our vet care was cheaper, utilities for our homes were cheaper. I saved up that $1200 when I was still in high school. Want something bad enough, and anything is possible. :)
 
#12 · (Edited)
http://www.dobermantalk.com/breeding-breeders/5975-cost-having-litter-puppies.html
http://www.dobermantalk.com/puppy-corner/69183-whats-cost-breed.html


To add to Sinister's post, I'm a broke grad student and am fully willing to pay up to $3000 for the right dog from an ethical breeder. In my eyes it's a better investment than all the expensive electronics I have sitting around my apartment.
I am also a broke grad student. I saved up or my well bred doberman through-out undergrad and it's the best decision I ever made. I would not hesitate to save up and spend a hefty amount for a well bred dog again either. As with many things, you get EXACTLY what you pay for when it comes to breeders.
 
#13 ·
Building a cheaper computer only hurts the person using it and if you're someone who just browses online and types up documents it might not hurt you at all.

Dobermans are animals and to create more you need to pass down genetic material, the bad along with the good. Creating a cheaper Doberman hurts the breed all around and everyone who loves the breed.


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App
 
#16 ·
Actually, good breeders can sometimes actually lose money trying to create a healthy litter. $1500 sounds like a lot of money to pay for a pet, but if you pay a BYB $500 for a pup, you will get what you pay for. A BYB dog will most likely cost much more in vet bills later in life, than the well bred dog who you paid more for in the first place. If you spend the $1500 - $2000 on a good breeder that cares about their dogs, and health tests, you are not going to have to pay a vet to take care of issues like an improper dock, cropping, worms, parvo, and vWD tests after the BYB dumps the pup on your door and says: "See ya!" Spending the $1500 - $2000 now is going to set you up to a much brighter future in terms of paying to upkeep the dog.

To sum it up, it is basically your choice to pay a fair price now, or pay a great price later.
 
#18 ·
I bet I have spent over $2000 just in behavioral training issues that I wouldn't have never had if I had went to a reputable breeder. Not to mention the future money I'm sure I will be spending on medical issues. After all that, I'm still having behavioral issues and getting ready to drop another grand.

Some things you just don't go generic on!


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App
 
#21 ·
Currently I am looking for a puppy at a reasonable price(~$1000) without having to sacrifice quality.

......I understand that these breeders have spared no expense along with an invaluable amount of time to do the right thing by the breed but how can the average Joe afford to get one of these dogs as purely a pet?
Because of specific health issues with the breed, you can't get a oet puppy for $1000 without sacrificing quality. If you want a well bred dog, you have to pay for it.

I was also surprised at the cost but the more I read, and the more I meet other doberman owners, the more I realize that you do get what you pay for. (I grew up with free dogs & free cats - it still seems absurd to pay for one, but I'm starting to undertand.)

I love my dog (found her on kijiji) but I can see that although she's as sweet as can be, her back isn't straight & her tail hangs funny & her coat isn't very thick. She's 5 now & I have no idea how long she'll live.

I would pay more for a better computer, but I might not go $5000 - I'd also pay quite a bit more for a better car - one that would last over 10 years instead of 5-7 & would protect me in a major accident.

If you can find a breeder with healthy dogs that live a long life, you'll be able to have a friend that will keep up with you for years, rather than a dog that might drop dead, have hip or coat problems, or behavior issues.

What about looking for an older dog from a good breeder? Sometimes they don't cost as much as the puppies & you'll know what sort of temperment you're getting before you start.
Kate
 
#22 ·
Bottom line: You are going to pay one way or the other.

Option 1:
Pay the money up front, support ethical breeding in the process and increase your odds of your doberman living a long healthy life. Not to mention unending breeder support for the lifetime of your pup for every issue from posting those dang ears to personality quirks to you name it.

Option 2:
Save a bundle on the front end, support a BYB and unethical breeding practices, spend into oblivion on correcting health & behavioral issues and possibly say goodbye to your dear friend far earlier than desirable. Need a question answered about issues your having with your pup? Good luck getting a hold of your so-called breeder. Lost your job/house/health/mind? Good luck getting your BYB to take the pup back and care for them.

Option 3:
Rescue. Save even MORE money on the front end, get the exact type of dog you would get in Option 2, support further rescue efforts with your money instead of future crappy breedings and also get lifetime support for your dog should something happen to it or you.

So, ya got options kiddo. Use that smart computer building brain of yours to choose the best one.
 
#23 ·
Once again.. My issue is not about saving money. Please stop with the brain-washed, cookie-cutter, smarmy responses because it is getting old and if I wanted to see copypasta from other threads/sites I would have just skipped posting here. It really is disgusting how rude and snide a lot of you got in regards to my question(s). If you don't have anything constructive to add to the conversation please stay out of it.

Thank you to those that provided intelligent responses and can think for yourselves.

To those with your smarmy responses... What is it like to drive in your Escalades? You've spared no expense to get the perfect pet so you must have spared no expense in transporting and caring for that pet. I can only imagine the physicians you're visiting - they surely must be the best in their fields because with the money you spend to get that perfect pet you must be in pristine health at all times. I can only imagine your spouses don't suffer from any kind of heart disease or genetic ailments because you wouldn't want to deal with potential health issues in the future with them or your children. God forbid you find out that person may get cancer or do you do health checks and ask for medical records before you make an actual commitment to a relationship. I mean if this is the kind of care you take in selecting a pet I can only begin to fathom what precautions you take in selecting a mate. I mean we're talking about a dog here, trying to better the breed, so I can only imagine the standards and efforts you're going through to create a better human.

I understand that a litter of puppies is expensive with all the health testing, titling, etc is but those fees should only be incurred once with the sire & dam thus making, hopefully, the second or third litter slightly less expensive. I am willing to, and have been, wait for the right litter to come around so I can get a quality pup that will be around for along time. I have the money to spend for a quality pup I was merely posing the question hoping to get some insight that I may not have thought of on my own. Once again - THANK YOU to those that contributed something helpful. Grow up to the rest. Try mirroring your personality to the quality of your dog.
 
#30 · (Edited)
i know my breeder regularly tests her dogs for heart problems. she shows them frequently, as well, and the costs associated with that can be very steep. i wouldn't want to buy a dog from a breeder who wasn't willing to continue showing/working toward titles, or one who wasn't regularly testing for heart problems. these cost money. this is a regular cost...not a one-time deal.

the rest of your post is snarky, insulting, and unnecessary.
 
#25 ·
Actually, my boyfriend has a really bad genetic kidney disease, he has had one transplant and his brother has had two, they are 30. We are making the responsible and ethical decision to not have children, only dogs :)

Your post has been reported because you are getting personal and very rude/degrading. You have been given excellent insight and advice and still don't get it, like I said, this forum might not be the right one for you.
 
#28 ·
Lets look at this your 1st post to me look like you dont want to spend the money most good breeders charges do to all the test they do and titles. Then the member come back with cost of breeding. Yes it would be cheaper to get 2 dogs together know nothing about them and breed. The other cost is the dogs. They also talk about the cost that can add up really quick form dogs that have bad health or temperaments. Most people here would drive a pos over supporting a byb(always have the black sheep).

P.S. I think you are a toll.
 
#29 · (Edited)
I understand that these breeders have spared no expense along with an invaluable amount of time to do the right thing by the breed but how can the average Joe afford to get one of these dogs as purely a pet?
I'm an average Joe and I bought my puppy through the lost art of saving my money. And I purchased my pup from a reputable breeder because of exactly what you said - she spared no expense along with an invaluable amount of time to do the right thing by the breed. Because I love the breed and I'd do anything to make sure my dogs are cared for, I expect their breeder to do the same.

The best thing I can recommend you is to find a breeder whose treatment of the breed matches your own standards and expectations. If money is your top concern, there are plenty of breeders to go around who also have money as a top concern. You shouldn't have any trouble finding a breeder who will sell you a pup at a price you deem reasonable, though you will more than likely have to sacrifice your desire for quality to a great extent.


At this current point in time I'm not looking to rescue but thank you for the suggestions to do so.

In regards to the financial portions it isn't that I don't have the money to spend the $1500+ it's just that it seems a bit ridiculous for the average person to have to spend that much to get a pet. I understand, 100%, that we have the list of reputable breeders (for any breed) for a reason but I feel the prices they charge are getting to be outrageous and is only going to get worse as time passes on.

@Fitzmar... all I can say is wow. I'm not even really sure how to respond to what you said. To answer your question - no I don't work for free but I also don't expect people to pay top dollar to support my hobby. I can build you a computer that will cost $5000, will far exceed any PC you'll purchase at any retailer, and will last longer than anything you'll find from the top manufactures but I bet you'd still go to Best Buy(or your local electronics store) and buy a computer that is better for your pocketbook regardless of how long it will last or the quality of the parts.

Oh! And thank you to those that responded. Your input and knowledge is appreciated.
While I will never understand why some people so easily compare a living, breathing, sentient creature such as a dog, to some inanimate piece of equipment to which one will never love or develop a bond...

Look at it this way...no matter who you purchase a pup from you WILL be reimbursing their costs for that puppy. But some people put the minimal amount of finances as humanly possible into their puppies so when you hand them $500 for your pup, instead of $1,500, guess what? Very little of that was an investment in your puppy (and I'd hardly call doing the bare minimum, like having to buy puppy food, an "investment") and nearly all of it is profit that goes in their pocket to be used to buy a new flat screen or to fund their next vacation. It does not go back into the breeding dogs for proper care, training, and quality of life.

This is where it becomes the ethical dilemma each person has to decide for themselves...Do you pay a higher price and support the breeder who has poured their heart and soul into their puppies which is WHY they have spent so much of their own money on their dogs and litters? Or do you pay a lower price to someone who has put as little as possible of their own money into their dogs and puppies?

I can only speak for myself, but I'm not going to invest a single red cent into someone's pup if they themselves won't even bother to invest in them. Would you be willing to give someone money for something that they won't even use their own money for? Would you be willing to buy a computer from a company who invests none of their own capital into the quality of the device yet they expect you to give them $500 for it? Why pay any money at all for nothing? BYB should be giving away their puppies for free rather than taking a fee for them because they have no costs to recoup at all. And they won't offer you support if something is wrong. 9 times out of 10 BYB will tell you they've *never* had [insert behavior/health problem here] before in their lines and they'll lay it off on the puppy owner even though they really have had a LOT of complaints about the same things over and over...but you will be left in the dark, ignored, and - God forbid you post about it on the internet - you will be berated and threatened if you have any problems with one of their puppies. Why? Because if they were honest about problems with their dogs and puppies it would hurt their their number one priority - sales. Money. Profit.

Feel free to be skeptical but I've seen it a MILLION times. Both here on the forum and in real life with people who come to my training club for help (clarification: not mine like I own it, but mine like the club of which I'm a member).

Good luck in your search and decision.
 
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