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Prey Aggression

3K views 28 replies 12 participants last post by  wgsdluver 
#1 ·
Hi, I am new and looking for help with my 2 year old Doberman. Up until the past 6 months he has been obedient, passive and well-behaved. He made it through a group training session and is happy to follow me around the house.
However, he went from being intimidated by a chihuahua to killing numerous outdoor cats, attacking any size dog, horse, alpaca etc. He has developed a one track mind and when he gets set on something you absolutely cannot break his concentration. He has grown up with my other small dog and he has begun attacking her too --to the point where they can't be out together. I have an electric fence and has also gotten to the poor where when he gets let out to do his business he won't and will literally circle the property at a dead run in a trance looking for stray cats. He has also grown up with a house cat and he can no longer be out with her either.

I understand it is natural for some dogs to be aggressive towards prey, but he is on a whole other extreme and did a complete 180. My concern is that he knows I want him to stop and is very smart and knows his commands, but when he is in the zone he loses everything.

I am at a loss as of what to do since no amount of keeping his focus matters when he's on a hunt. Family is now afraid of him and I'm looking for suggestion on how to handle this behavior
 
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#2 ·
Is he neutered? What have you tried as far as controlling him and redirecting his aggressive behavior? Was he trained to a solid "leave it" as a puppy and is now ignoring it, or was he just basic obedience trained with no further reinforcing as he grew up?

The thing with Dobes (and other breeds like them) is that training is NEVER over- as they mature you must continue to work on maintaining their training. Your dog is now an adult, so it is not surprising for him to have had some shifts in behavior as he reached maturity- particularly where animal aggression is concerned...

If here were my dog- I would immediately seek the assistance of a professional trainer/behaviorist to evaluate his issues. The next thing I would do is RESTRICT his access to other animals completely! NO outside loose time that wasn't controlled by ME- on a long line or leash until he can again be controlled off leash. Lots of exercise, also directed by me- to work off his excess energy in a non-destructive manner.

I strongly suspect there were some warning signs that you missed as he was maturing, but it certainly would also be useful to get a full veterinary evaluation to make certain there aren't any medical issues (like thyroid) behind the aggression also.
 
#3 ·
Yes he is.He knows leave it and "aah aah" -I learned that from Victoria Stillwell. I've always used that as a distraction to get him to stop doing something like counter surfing or taking an article of clothing and then I praise him. Firstly, I can't even get his attention--secondly I think he's figured out that there is no benefit/reward worthwhile to stopping when he's having that much fun- and nothing I can physically do to him to pry him off of another animal. The neighbors lab, who he had previously been afraid of, wandered onto the property and he had he by the throat on the ground just tearing into her. I tried getting his attention like usual, food, loud noise distractions etc...but none of those things were worth it to him to stop.

Unfortunately I just don't have the cash after being laid off to get professional help. I called around and the person who seemed confident they could help charged 600/wk of training. I just cannot do that at this time. But I am willing to learn or read or take suggestions.

I spoke with a bahavioralist via phone and they wondered if training would transfer over when he's in such a trance. Sometimes I don't even think he realizes anyone else is there. Afterwards he calms down and is back to wagging his tail and playing with toys.
Thank you for your help!
 
#4 ·
If nothing you do can break his "trance"- then you MUST NOT allow him to get into that "trance" in the first place. So, as I already mentioned- do NOT allow him outside without having physical control via a leash or long line. The very second he tries to focus on any other animal you issue the "leave it" command and use the leash to bring him to your side. If he refuses or fights the leash- you walk away from whatever he is focused on until you can gain his attention. NO EXCEPTIONS. He has lost the "right" to be on his own outside since you cannot control him or prevent him from harming others.

You otherwise run the very real risk of losing your dog AND getting sued should he attack & kill someone's pet or god forbid their child. So why on earth are you still allowing him the opportunity?
 
#6 ·
I am allowing him the opportunity to run on *my* fenced property for exercise...no where else. Since it is my property I wouldn't run the risk of being sued if someone's pet came over. As it is, I had obviously apologized to the neighbor and they said it was ultimately their fault for letting their animals out unattended to cross the road and come into the yard. Clearly I would NEVER take him to a public place to set him free on a pet or a person.. :)
 
#8 ·
If your yard is adequately fenced, then how are these other animals gaining access to it? Labs aren't exactly small enough to squeeze through a hole very easily. So if a lab can get in, what is to stop a small human? If it is an underground fence, then keep in mind that in many states they are not considered legal fences. Meaning, that you CAN be sued should your animal cause harm when confined with only that fence. Also, in most states should your dog cause harm to livestock (horses, alpaca, etc..) you are legally responsible for reimbursing the owner for the animal and they are allowed to shoot your pet if they are caught in the act. If his drive increases enough to leave your property- what then?

And further, how do you expect to regain control of him if you do not stop allowing him unrestricted access??
 
#10 ·
They are MY horses and alpaca, which he grew up with. I do know the laws in my state :) Also, if someone's horse or alpaca were on MY property they'd not be allowed to shoot--unless he came onto someone else's property- which he does not

I'm not sure how not letting him around his triggers would help either of us? That's to say I can't ever take him on a public walk through the park because,god forbid, a cat would run by. I can't simply avoid these things and I was looking for sound advice on training tactics. I did not come here to be questioned and probed ---that he *must* have gotten out of my fence or attacked someone else's property...
 
#13 · (Edited)
Quite simply you have reached the end of what looks like purely positive training will take you. You need corrections which are beyond the dogs correction threshold (anything less is just stimulation and likely to increase the problem behavior). You need help from someone that is willing to go there with you. The alternative is probably euthanasia. That is why methods like Victoria Stillwell employs irritate the crap out of me. It might work for a Golden Retriever, unlikely to become secure/proofed with a decent working breed.

And no of course you can't take him to a public park without a leash and ability to control your dog. I personally sure as hell would not do it with my own dogs.
 
#20 ·
I just re-read, re-thought and gots a couple of questions.

This dog is choosing to honor an electronic fence? Even if there is a potential victim beyond the fence? How high is the fence collar set? Has he been hammered by this thing?

Has he been out of his yard and in the presence of a potential target since he began exhibiting this behavior? Do you know with certainty that this behavior does exist outside of his yard? You said that you could no longer let your little dog outside with him... is he O.K. with her in the house?

This might be more of a re-hab issue...
 
#21 · (Edited)
Thanks everyone!

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts. To the last poster- when I initially got the fence per his trainers advice, the fence company had its own trainer. We did the training over two weeks where id walk him to the fence line (marked with neon flags) say "BACK!" and walk him straight back. After that we turned it up to a buzz. Within the first day my guy caught on extremely fast and the company trainer couldn't believe how smart he was. He told me to continue training just in case. After only a week I'd walk him towards the fence and he laid down before coming within 10 feet of it.

I then let him out and watched and he obeyed until my barn cat decided to strut past- off he shot through the fence like a bullet. So, immediately put him back on leash and he would stop 15 feet before fence. He got through the fence one more time to chase the horses and I called the trainer- we ultimately had to up his collar almost all the way and have it where it continues to zap 5 seconds. He went through it at that level, got put on his butt and hasn't tried since.

I have been walking him with a leash. First time out he was fine. Second he pulled back and wiggled out of collar. I put on the collar that has the extra material (greyhound collar?) and he was able to get out of that with me trying to hold him down. Put on a prong collar and he managed to snap it... Usually he is very obedient on a leash- he does not pull and usually stays at my side. I think he's figured out pretty quickly that he's stronger...


- honestly since he started this I've been too afraid to take him anywhere too public-- however you may be right, it may be more of a protective thing?

Also- I have never seen him act in any sort of aggression towards a human or child, but until I trust him I'm not going to let him anywhere.
 
#23 ·
One last thing :)

If I were to use an e-collar, would I zap as he caught eye of his subject? I am afraid to let the small dog out for fear he'd really grab her and it didn't work.

He has killed 3 stray cats, attacked neighbors dog once and chased my farm animals. He can no longer get to farm animals due to fence- but I have 2 outdoor barn cats that I've adopted. For the past month or so those two cats have caught on and stayed in the barn, but I always check my front porch before letting the Dobe out to make sure a kitty isn't sleeping there.
 
#24 ·
Just a couple of points I've picked up on.
His behaviour over the last 6 months has changed. Going from passive to aggressive.
You also have said he tires easily.

Sounds like he could have a possible thyroid issue which someone else on this thread has also mentioned

I think before you can proceed with training you need to rule this out first.


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#25 ·
This isn't something I'd try to fix myself. And personally I wouldn't use the trainer you are currently using if he/she just keeps saying increase the shock. I'd hire a GOOD trainer and also second the idea of a vet visit.
 
#27 ·
We never let Chanel (or any visiting dogs) go on the 'back' deck where the barn cats sit. It's a dog free zone off the kitchen & it didn't take long to teach Chanel she wasn't allowed there & had to use either the front or mudroom door. We put a chair across when other dogs visit so they can't get up the steps.

If you have other doors, it may be worth seeing if you can establish a safety zone for the cats where they won't run so the dog won't chase.

Everything I read indicates that dobes are happy when they are mentally challenged as well as physically. If you can reinforce your OB & maybe work on some new 'mind work' with your dog it might help in general. (Might also make whatever you ultimately decide on for training go easier too, if you are both in the zone rather than starting fresh into the brand new, never tried stuff.)
Kate
 
#29 ·
I think you need professional help on this. I wouldn't use the e collar in the "fenced" area as it will likely really confuse him at why he is being corrected in his boundary.
Outside of the fenced area probably good but I'd try a different method in the "fence" not sure what that could be as I'm not a trainer... Also it sounds like your prong collar was probably fitted too loosely. A properly fitted color almost never snaps. Google "prong collar fit leer burg"


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